07-09-2002 01:21									#1
	Trading Session 5 Tired of ads?

Turn 5 closes EXACTLY 96 hours from the post time of this message.
EDIT:Extended Market Time by 24 hours as it seems few members have had time to see the thread.

Use this thread for trade proposals only. So, NO DEBATES HERE (except relating to current session rules questions- TRYING SOMETHING NEW:NON-TRANSACTION COMMENTS, SUCH AS DEBATES AND QUESTIONS PLEASE POST IN COLOR=GREEN)

For rules, a directory of threads and debates see the thread Main thread and directory

Current Market Assessment:

Turn Number: 5
In Game year: 210 BC
"Market One": Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BHQ, Port Rouge


Total population: 17
Available labour: 17

Food demand: 34
Food supplied: 10+10+10+7+6=43

D:S = 34/43 = 79%
Default price = $79


Shield Demand: 7+5+4+3+3=22
Shield Supply: 7+5+5+4+3=24

D:S: = 22/24 = 92%
Default price = $92

Commerce Demand: 9+7+4+4+4=28
Commerce Supplied: 10+9+6+5+5=35

D:S: = 28/35 =80%
Default price = $80

ALL COMMODITIES USE A BASE RATE OF $100.



THIS SESSION USES FRANCES' SOLUTION 1 RULES

Trade proposals
Solution 1:
The solution is generalized and is:

The nobles specify the amount of the commodity they want to sell/buy and their minimum/maximum price. The price they receive will be equal to the calculated D:S unless D:S is lower/higher than the minimum price in which case the commodity is not sold/bought.

example:
Market Assesment 4:4=$100
OneGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $70
SecondGuy offers two commerce and sets a minimum price of $0
ThirdGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $40

The turn is closed. Final D:S=4:8=$50
OneGuy does not sell his commerce at this price so he is taken out of the equation. New final D:S=4:7=$57
SecondGuy and Thirdguy now sell their commerce at $57.

Advantages:
1. Solves the problem of unacceptable price influencing as described by Epistax
2. Nobles only need to specify their deals once
3. System is fair to people that do not have the time to visit the forum at the end of the turn
4. The banker has a lot less work
5. D:S has to be calculated at the end of the turn only
6. Turn may close before the pre-specified time (as soon as all nobles have posted).

Buildings
Solution 1:
IMO, the main reason for the rejection of the proposed buildings was the cost. The payback time was just too high (see also my post in this thread and Epistax/UnOrthOdOx analysis in above posts. I suggest the following buildings (most of them equal to the original proposal of GhengisFarb):

STOREHOUSE (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food).

TAVERN (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 food per turn at a 50% bonus.

SHOPPE (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 commerce per turn at a 50% bonus.

SMITHY (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 shields per turn at a 50% bonus.

BAKERY (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 food into 2 bread (1 food into 1 bread).
The default price of bread is $100.
Bread can not be stored.
Demand of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Supply of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bakery is build in must be specified

BANK (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 commerce into 2 loans (1 commerce into 1 loan).
A loan can not be stored.
Demand of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Supply of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bank is build in must be specified.


Demand/Supply
Solution 1:
I propose to keep the current Demand/Supply system.
The existing problems can be solved by enabling the nobles to influence the supply chain. This is realized by defining buildings that convert food and commerce into other commodities. Many of the other proposals will fail if more land is auctioned to new players adding more supply to the process.
Short term problems will remain, so I suggest to provide one storehouse (see below) for free to all nobles. With it they can
anticipate on what will happen if the conversion buildings come on-line.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 08-09-2002 at 18:34

	07-09-2002 01:53									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What the hell are you talking about?

	07-09-2002 02:13									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

How will this effect the labour we acquired? Or is that overlooked for this round?

	07-09-2002 02:37									#4
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster What the hell are you talking about?

This is an economic game based on our current position in the DemGame. Player own tiles from the game and buy/sell the production to make money.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx How will this effect the labour we acquired? Or is that overlooked for this round?

We're just ignoring them for Frances' system. No using/feeding as we're playing as it doesn't exist. I've got it tracked though so if we decide to go back it will still be there.

Also any buildings/construction from last session is still there and can be used as the current rules dictate.

	07-09-2002 04:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I really don't have the time to participate in the mini-game and at this time would like to say:

----------------------------
Sheik Estate:

Sheik gives all property to GhengisFarb for $0
----------------------------

	08-09-2002 02:47									#6
	Got spare money?

Where is everybody?

	08-09-2002 04:50									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've been busy but I'll start

code:
Banana Pastures , Turn 4.  Admin: Nimitiz
Holdings: 
     Tile 031, NW Banana HQ, 2/1/2
Buildings:
     None
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+0 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      1 shields      2 commerce
Cash Change: $0
     0    Selling
     0    Buying
Current Cash: $0      Debt: -$1500 (Interest @ turn 18)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ min $40 each
     2 Comm  @ min $40 each
     1 shield @ min $40 each
Buying:
     Nothing
New D/S:
     Food: 34/45    = $75
     Shld: 22/25    = $88
     Comm: 28/37    = $75           

Last edited by Nimitz on 09-09-2002 at 19:29

	09-09-2002 03:20									#8
	Put an end to popups!

between my new judicial duties and other stuff I do on the forum, and my RL, i find i dont have enough time to participate effectively in this $mini game. it was alot of fun while I could though, and I hope you all keep it up so when I do get time i can maybe rejoin. whoever would like my estate (my original property and the property that skywalker gave me) then just let me know.
Thabks,

Kman

	09-09-2002 17:28									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm pretty much in a hurry, so sorry for not making it correctly...

Spiffor's woodworks

Forest tile (road) W of Apolyton
1 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce

Sell 1 food at 40$ minimum
Sell 2 shields at 60$ minimum
Sell 1 commerce at 40$ minimum

Give 50$ to GhengisFarb for doing the market assesment and keeping track of things this turn.
Pay off my debt with everything I can (sorry to burden you Ghengis, but I'm busy these times)

	09-09-2002 20:18									#10
	Support Apolyton

Is there a info somewhere on what you are doing?

	10-09-2002 03:32									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= Is there a info somewhere on what you are doing?

Try Here

HeHeHe No offense, but your name sounds like a cross between the leader of the Autobots and a Roman Emperor................

	10-09-2002 07:21									#12
	Got spare money?

Estate Jonny, Turn 4
Holdings: 003a, Apolyton SW (forest,road)
Administered By: Jonny
Buildings: None
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Production This Turn: 1 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
Current Cash: $275
Debt: -$780 (interest @ turn 18)

Transactions this Turn:

Sell 1 food @ $50 minimum
Sell 2 shields @ $50 minimum
Sell 1 commerce @ $50 minimum
Pay off $275 in debt

New D/S:

Food 34/47 = $72
Shields 22/29 = $76
Commerce 28/39 = $72

	10-09-2002 08:57									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Estate of Kloreep
Turn #: 005
Holdings: 006 Apolyton NW11 (mined grass rd)

Stockpile: 0 food, 4 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $662
Debt: -$1400 (10% interest, 11 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: Kloreep

---
Production this turn: 2 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
---

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 food @ $1 minimum
Sell 2 shields @ $50 minimum
Sell 1 Commerce @ $50 minimum
Use my estate's vassal to convert one shield into the beginnings of a warehouse.

New D/S:
Food 34/49 = $69
Shields 22/31 = $71
Commerce 28/40 = $70

	10-09-2002 09:21									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

code:

House Julian
Turn 5.

Holdings: 
     "The Mustang Ranch" - 001, Apolyton N, Grass w Horse 2/0/2
Buildings:
     Tavern in Apolyton
     Shoppe in Apolyton (1+0of3 complete)
Stkp: 0 food    0 shields    0 commerce
Prod: 2 food    0 shields    2 commerce

Cash: $299
Debt: -$1000 (Interest @ turn 18?)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $1 minimum (+ Tavern)
     2 Comm  @ $1 minimum
Buying:
     Nothing
New D/S:
     Food: x  34/51  = $67
     Comm: x  28/42  = $67
Construction:
     Nothing

	10-09-2002 09:26									#15
	Support Apolyton

One other thing. If people abandon the game at this early stage, should their lands go back to the govt?

... or better yet, hold them inactive in case the people come back. Let people step back in if they choose. They go back to the govt when the interest free period expires.

	10-09-2002 10:01									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Dudeville Turn #: 005 Holdings: 010 Termina NE (mined grass rd) Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce Cash: $440 Debt: -$920(10% interest, 14 turns remaining on grace period) Buildings: None Administered by: Duddha Production this turn: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce --- Proposed Deals: Sell 2 of 2 food @ $55 each Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $55 each Sell 1 of 1 shields @ $60 each pay $440 off debt New D/S: Food: 34/51+2 = $64 Sheild: 22/31+1 = $68 Commerce: 28/42+1 = $65

I will soon own my land!

	10-09-2002 15:50									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

code:
House Ghengis Land Holdings in the Province of Mingapulco
Turn #: 003 
Holdings: 
House Ghengis:
"Apolyfield" - 004 Apolyton NW (grass), 
"Jungleister" - 015 Termina NE3 (jungle), 
"Ghengis Mountain" - 022 Tassagrad NW (jungle)

Leased from adaMada:
005 Apolyton NW10 (mined grass rd)

Leased from civman2000:
008 Apolyton NE1 (mined grass rd)

Leased from UnOrthOdOx:
013 Termina NE1 (jungle), 
014 Termina NE2 (jungle)

Leased from jdd2007:
023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle) 
024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle) 
025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle) 

Stockpile(s): 
GhengisFarb Estate: 0 food, 6 shields, 0 commerce
adaMada Estate:.....0 food, 2 shields, 0 commerce
civman2000 Estate:.0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
jdd2007 Estate:.....0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
TOTAL STOCKPILE..0 food, 8 shields, 0 commerce

Cash: $166 
Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 11 turns remaining on grace period) 
Buildings:  STOREHOUSE ON ESTATE OF GHENGISFARB
                  TAVERN IN TASSAGRAD
                  TAVERN IN APOLYTON
                  TAVERN IN BHQ


Administered by: GhengisFarb, First Ghengis of House Ghengis 

Last turn's completed trades: 
GhengisFarb sold 14 food at $80 
GhengisFarb sold 15 commerce at $60 
GhengisFarb hired 1 labor(Apolyton) @ $51 
GhengisFarb hired 1 labor(BHQ) @ $26 
GhengisFarb bought 2 French vassals $5 
GhengisFarb paid adaMada $110 rent 
GhengisFarb paid civman2000 $175 rent 
GhengisFarb paid jdd2007 $150 rent 
GhengisFarb paid Kloreep $200 rent 
GhengisFarb paid UnOrthOdOx $100 rent 
..........Total Income for Turn =$1198 (Cash=$1209, Debt=$1000 
FINISHED TAVERN IN APOLYTON 
FINISHED TAVERN IN BHQ 
FINISHED TAVERN IN TASSAGRAD 
FINISHED STOREHOUSE ON ESTATE OF GHENGISFARB 

..........net Cash Flow =$1198


Production this turn: 12 food, 3 shields, 6 commerce
--- 

Proposed Deals: 


Sell 12 food @ a minimum price of $44  (D:S 34/65(43+22)=$52)  
Pay adaMada $110 rent 
Pay civman2000 $175 rent 
Pay paid jdd2007 $150 rent 
Pay paid UnOrthOdOx $100 rent

	10-09-2002 16:00									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Hope I got this right, I always follow everyone else's lead. GF, could you confirm for me the end of my interest grace period? I bought prior to turn 1.

You have 10 turns AFTER this turn.

You do realize you only built 2/3 of the tavern last turn? You still have one labor/shield left on it.

quote: BTW, I prefer this min/max system. It will take less attention and keep more people IMO. One other thing. If people abandon the game at this early stage, should their lands go back to the govt? One exception should be that Cap should get something when he comes back, assuming this goes on.

I figure we can have a quick discussion thread to resolve these matters after this session. I also came up with a system where we can raise troops and attack each other in medieval fashion if anyone's interested in it.

	10-09-2002 18:01									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Episten Plantation
Turn #: 005
Holdings: bleh

Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $don't remember
Debt: -$1700
Buildings: Tavern (2/3) @ Termina

Administered by: Epi

---
Production this turn: 2 food, 0 shields, 1 commerce
---

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 food @ $1 minimum
Sell 1 Commerce @ $1 minimum
Buy 1 Labor @ Termina $80 maximum
Buy 1 Shield $80 maximum

New D/S:
Food 34/65+2 = $51
Shields 22+1/30 = $77
Commerce 48/43 = wtf? How is this 55? Well it's 48/44 now.

	11-09-2002 02:22									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

MARKET CLOSED

	11-09-2002 07:41									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

NOTE:ANYTHING NOT SOLD, INCLUDING FOOD IS STOCKPILED UNTIL NEXT TURN. I DIDN"T CALCULATE THE FINAL D/S LIKE FRANCES WANTED. HIS SYSTEM WOULD HAVE TAKEN ME SEVERAL HOURS LONGER THAN WHAT IT CURRENTLY TOOK AND IT TOOK ME OVER SIX HOURS TO COMPUTE THE NUMBERS FOR THE INITIAL MARKET ASSESSMENT.

ALSO, I DIDN"T COMPUTE ANY DEBT PAYMENTS.

FINAL TRANSACTION LIST FOR SESSION 5
Here's what I came up with for completed transactions:

Labor Market
Available Labor: 17
D:S 2/17 = $12


FINAL TRANSACTIONS:
Kloreep hired 1 labor @ $12
Epistax hired 1 labor @ $12


FOOD MARKET
Food demand: 34
Food supplied: 43
Food sold: 24

D:S = 34/(43+24)67 = 50.75%
End price = $50
FINAL TRANSACTIONS:
Duddha sold 2 food at $55 Market price below his minimum price
Epistax sold 2 food at $50
GhengisFarb sold 12 food at $50
Jonny sold 1 food at $50
Kloreep sold 2 food @ 50
Nimitz sold 2 food at $50
notyoueither sold 2 food at $50
Spiffor sold 1 food at $50




SHIELD MARKET
Shields demand: 22
Shields supplied: 23
Shields sold: 6 Shields bought: 3

D:S = 23(22+1)/32(24 +8) = 71.88%
End price = $71-72
FINAL TRANSACTIONS:
Duddha sold 2 shields at $71
Epistax bought 1 shield at $72
Jonny sold 2 shields at $71
Kloreep sold 2 shields at $71
Spiffor sold 2 shields at $71


COMMERCE MARKET
Commerce demand: 28
Commerce supplied: 35
Commerce sold: 9

D:S = 28/(35 + 9)44 = 31.8%
End price = $31
FINAL TRANSACTIONS:
Duddha sold 1 commerce at $63
Epistax sold 1 commerce at $63
Jonny sold 1 commerce at $63
Kloreep sold 3 commerce at $63
Nimitz sold 2 commerce at $63
notyoueither sold 2 commerce at $63
Spiffor sold 1 commerce at $63


Total Incomes
adaMada received $110 rent from GhengisFarb
..........Total Income for Turn =$110 (Cash $330, Debt $1200)

civman2000 received $175 rent from GhengisFarb
civman2000 paid $175 of debt
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $0, Debt $300)

Darkness' Edge
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $0, Debt $400)

Duddha sold 2 food at $55 Market price below his minimum price
Duddha sold 2 shields at $71
Duddha sold 1 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn =$205 (Cash $645, Debt $920)

Epistax hired 1 labor @ $12
Epistax sold 2 food at $50
Epistax bought 1 shield at $72
Epistax sold 1 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn = $79 (Cash $395, Debt $750)

Frances
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $405, Debt $1100)

GhengisFarb sold 12 food at $50
(6 (2x3 taverns) @ 50% bonus = +$150)
GhengisFarb paid adaMada $110 rent
GhengisFarb paid civman2000 $175 rent
GhengisFarb paid jdd2007 $150 rent
GhengisFarb paid UnOrthOdOx $100 rent
..........Total Income for Turn =$215 (Cash=$1424, Debt=$1000)
TAVERN IN APOLYTON
TAVERN IN BHQ
TAVERN IN TASSAGRAD
STOREHOUSE ON ESTATE OF GHENGISFARB

jdd2007 received $150 rent from GhengisFarb
..........Total Income for Turn = $150 (Cash $815, Debt $750)

Jonny sold 1 food at $50
Jonny sold 2 shields at $71
Jonny sold 1 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn = $255 (Cash $530, Debt $780)

Kloreep hired 1 labor @ $12
Kloreep sold 2 food @ 50
Kloreep sold 2 shields at $71
Kloreep sold 1 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn =$293 (Cash $955, Debt $1400)

Kramerman
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $545, Debt $1370)

Nimitz sold 2 food at $50
Nimitz sold 2 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn =$226 (Cash $486, Debt $1500)

notyoueither sold 2 food at $50
notyoueither sold 2 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn =$226 (Cash $525, Debt $1000)
2 of 3 completed on a Tavern In Apolyton


rendelnep
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $0, Debt $1020)

Shiek
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $152, Debt $400)

skywalker
..........Total Income for Turn =$0 (Cash $405, Debt $1000)

Spiffor sold 1 food at $50
Spiffor sold 2 shields at $71
Spiffor sold 1 commerce at $63
..........Total Income for Turn =$255 (Cash $240, Debt $775)

UnOrthOdOx received $100 rent from GhengisFarb
..........Total Income for Turn =$100 (Cash $305, Debt $225)

Anyone notice any mistakes/corrections?



CURRENT STOCKPILES
Discontinued.....(Mind you I still keep track so don't think about fudging your inventory.)


CONSTRUCTION STATUS
Epistax has finished a Tavern in Termina?
Franses has built 4 of ? on a building in a city/estate.
GhengisFarb finished a Tavern in Apolyton
GhengisFarb finished a Tavern in BHQ
GhengisFarb finished a Tavern in Tassagrad
GhengisFarb finished a Storehouse on his Estate
Kloreep has built 1 of 2 on Storehouse on his Estate
notyoueither has built 2 of 3 on a Tavern in Apolyton

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 15-09-2002 at 16:51

	11-09-2002 07:46									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Genghis, concerning the final Commerce D/S:

28/44 = 63.63%

According to the first post in the thread, everything uses a $100 base rate.

	11-09-2002 08:12									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Jonny Genghis, concerning the final Commerce D/S: 28/44 = 63.63% According to the first post in the thread, everything uses a $100 base rate.

You're right my spreadsheet was still set at a $50 base rate for commerce.

	11-09-2002 08:51									#24
	Support Apolyton

Correction: I only sold 1 commerce (all I had). That means my income for the turn was $293, and I only have $955 cash.

Also, this is the first time I've successfully converted a shield, so I only have 1 shield of the warehouse built.

Thanks for running this. It's a lot of fun now that I'm near being able to pay my debt off.

	11-09-2002 18:10									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Correction: I only sold 1 commerce (all I had). That means my income for the turn was $293, and I only have $955 cash. Also, this is the first time I've successfully converted a shield, so I only have 1 shield of the warehouse built. Thanks for running this. It's a lot of fun now that I'm near being able to pay my debt off.

Thanks, corrected it.