08-09-2002 13:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The next attack will be against either the Sears Tower or the Golden Gate Bridge. OBL is going after America's symbols of greatness.

Hmm....I dont think so.

Isn't OBL going after symbols of American capitalism and economic and military strength? He did say that he wanted all these Jihad-people to destroy Americas economy...And the World Trade Centre is definatley a symbol of American Economy.

And the date, I'm guessing is either going to be 9/11 (as symbolism) or during the November elections (as the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks were on teh same day some election thing was supposed to take place in New York)

	08-09-2002 13:29									#32
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quote: Perhaps you don't understand it, but with your suggestions that Sept. 11, 2001, wasn't all what it appeared to be ... you are *diminishing* the 3,000 plus lives of those who died on that day

Why?

	08-09-2002 13:55									#33
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Every month, a new 'imminent' terrorist attack.

	08-09-2002 14:05									#34
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Frogger:

Uh, well, geez. Let's pretend for a moment that I was among the 3000 people killed on Sept. 11, 2001. My family is grieving, angry and basically just down with life for the timebeing.

It's been a year since the attacks, and my family has somewhat recovered. The news is filled with developments on the war on terrorism, and stories appear from time to time about terrorists gloating and how they hadn't realized their strike would be as "successful" as it was. The evidence keeps mounting that OBL and company were behind the strikes.

Yet there continue to be people who live with their damn heads in the clouds claiming that there's a "conspiracy" (or more) behind what *really* happened on Sept. 11, 2001. Stories about remote controlled aircraft used by the CIA to slam into the buildings. Stories about how 4,000 Jews failed to show up for work that day, and somehow the Zionists are linked to causing the attack. Stories about how a corrupt Big Oil-controlled U.S. administration let the attacks happen because it would clear the way for a frickin' oil pipeline in Afghanistan. Stories about how OBL wasn't "sophisticated" enough to carry out such an attack.

That's what I'm talking about when folks go off on their tangents about conspiracies and whatnot. Hey, I'm not stopping you from doing so, just saying that at the same time, you're also diminishing the deaths of those who died.

Basically, it's like this: I dare you to march up to a Jewish person and tell them that the Holocaust was actually the work of the Illuminati. Or, better yet, that it didn't happen, that all those photos and all those black-and-white reel shots were made up. Or that Hitler didn't know about the death camps, having been lied to by his underlings. Say this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, and don't be one bit surprised if someone gets a bit touchy with you.

That's why, Frogger.

Gatekeeper

	08-09-2002 14:23									#35
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I'm sorry, I still dont get how the word diminish comes into play...Lets look at the definition:

quote: di·min·ish Pronunciation Key (d-mnsh) v. di·min·ished, di·min·ish·ing, di·min·ish·es v. tr. To make smaller or less or to cause to appear so.

Ok, these theories are not making LESS of the deaths. They are theorizing MORE to the event. I dont see how "diminish" comes to play.

quote: Basically, it's like this: I dare you to march up to a Jewish person and tell them that the Holocaust was actually the work of the Illuminati. Or, better yet, that it didn't happen, that all those photos and all those black-and-white reel shots were made up. Or that Hitler didn't know about the death camps, having been lied to by his underlings. Say this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, and don't be one bit surprised if someone gets a bit touchy with you.

Thats irrelevant. They are not saying the event didnt happen, that would be stupid as everyone knows it did happen. They are saying that the government may have been involved in the attacks.

	08-09-2002 14:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Frogger: Uh, well, geez. Let's pretend for a moment that I was among the 3000 people killed on Sept. 11, 2001. My family is grieving, angry and basically just down with life for the timebeing. It's been a year since the attacks, and my family has somewhat recovered. The news is filled with developments on the war on terrorism, and stories appear from time to time about terrorists gloating and how they hadn't realized their strike would be as "successful" as it was. The evidence keeps mounting that OBL and company were behind the strikes. Yet there continue to be people who live with their damn heads in the clouds claiming that there's a "conspiracy" (or more) behind what *really* happened on Sept. 11, 2001. Stories about remote controlled aircraft used by the CIA to slam into the buildings. Stories about how 4,000 Jews failed to show up for work that day, and somehow the Zionists are linked to causing the attack. Stories about how a corrupt Big Oil-controlled U.S. administration let the attacks happen because it would clear the way for a frickin' oil pipeline in Afghanistan. Stories about how OBL wasn't "sophisticated" enough to carry out such an attack. That's what I'm talking about when folks go off on their tangents about conspiracies and whatnot. Hey, I'm not stopping you from doing so, just saying that at the same time, you're also diminishing the deaths of those who died. Basically, it's like this: I dare you to march up to a Jewish person and tell them that the Holocaust was actually the work of the Illuminati. Or, better yet, that it didn't happen, that all those photos and all those black-and-white reel shots were made up. Or that Hitler didn't know about the death camps, having been lied to by his underlings. Say this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, and don't be one bit surprised if someone gets a bit touchy with you. That's why, Frogger. Gatekeeper

None of this explain why. Really. Note that I don't believe for a minute that the US government was behind the attacks. And I'm almost as certain that it was the Al Qaeda terror network.

quote: Or, better yet, that it didn't happen, that all those photos and all those black-and-white reel shots were made up

This, of course, is simply not an applicable analogy, unless somebody is denying that 3000 innocent people died when the WTC collapsed.

	08-09-2002 14:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Basically, it's like this: I dare you to march up to a Jewish person and tell them that the Holocaust was actually the work of the Illuminati. Or, better yet, that it didn't happen, that all those photos and all those black-and-white reel shots were made up. Or that Hitler didn't know about the death camps, having been lied to by his underlings. Say this in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, and don't be one bit surprised if someone gets a bit touchy with you.

A better analogy would be that saying the US government was directly involved in the Sept. 11 attacks is like saying the Jews ran the death camps and killed their own people.

	08-09-2002 14:47									#38
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Yup.

Still doesn't explain why somebody whose grandfather died in Auschwitz should feel that you're diminishing his death.

Whether he was murdered by German or Jew ( ), whether those killed in New York were murdered by Arab terrorist or the US government ( ) they were still the innocent victims of an atrocity.

	08-09-2002 18:26									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov While not the same scale, it would not be without historical precedent for a government to let their people be killed to further a political goal. For instance, I believe there is pretty compelling circumstantial evidence that the British admiralty set up the Lusitania to be sunk to help draw the U.S. into WWI. And David Floyd would take that a step further and say Wilson was in on it.

Don't forget the burning of the Reichstag.

	08-09-2002 21:46									#40
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You people need to learn to learn to smile and nod with sarcasticly when people start spouting idiotic conspiracies. It will save on the blood pressure medicine and bannings.

	09-09-2002 00:11									#41
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Damn, I thought this thread was about baseball .

	09-09-2002 00:18									#42
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So did I.

Anyway, do you think that the deal that was recently struck can serve as a foundation from which to build substantive reforms into baseball?

	09-09-2002 00:34									#43
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No, they'll threaten to strike when this stopgap runs out in a few years. This really isn't a foundation at all, just a stopgap to stave off a strike, until the next time.

	09-09-2002 00:35									#44
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I don't care if it does or not DD. The sport is losing popularity. I gave up on pro ball after the strike of '94. Let them eat cake.

	09-09-2002 00:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, they'll threaten to strike when this stopgap runs out in a few years. This really isn't a foundation at all, just a stopgap to stave off a strike, until the next time.

Any chance of either side agreeing to binding arbitration or being forced to?

	09-09-2002 00:41									#46
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Dino, you are kidding right?

We will never see binding arbitration between the two sides... ever, ever, ever.

	09-09-2002 00:47									#47
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Too bad there are so many fans who are sheep. A fan strike would bring both sides into line, especially the players.

	09-09-2002 00:48									#48
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Yeah, but a fan's strike is also insanely hard to organize. It isn't like the players or owners who talk to each other on a regular basis.

	09-09-2002 02:14									#49
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Frogger, Tingkai:

So I'm not very good with analogies sometimes. It was late, I was tired and (throw in some other excuses here).

Gatekeeper

	09-09-2002 02:31									#50
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I presonally do't see it as diminishing their lives. If I had died in those towers I would want people to properly consider what had happened, rather than just accepting whatever they're told. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I want to properly consider every angle.

To me motive and evidence are major factors in determining who is guilty, so far I haven't been satisfied in either aspect.

	09-09-2002 04:23									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The next attack will be against either the Sears Tower or the Golden Gate Bridge. OBL is going after America's symbols of greatness. If I had a guess, 9/11 is the right date.

I don't know. OBL hasn't had enough time to plot, prepare, and stage anything major for this year. I believe that this September will be a quiet one, at least on the terrorist front that is.

	09-09-2002 04:35									#52
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I read somewhere that the terrorists are going to release their own documentary on the hijackings. Kind of a making of the Twin Towers attack. And they are going to claim that Bin Laden was only informed of it on the 6th of September.

	09-09-2002 04:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I read somewhere that the terrorists are going to release their own documentary on the hijackings. Kind of a making of the Twin Towers attack. And they are going to claim that Bin Laden was only informed of it on the 6th of September.

Could be. The video from last November (or whenever), allegedly left behind in an al-Qaida house in Afghanistan, had OBL saying that he was told of the attacks five days prior.

	09-09-2002 04:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I don't know, does the administration have anything to gain from another terrorist attack? I hope they hit London...

Hey.

Jon lives nowhere near London and so you spite people like me, who do. Please replace London with Eastbourne.

	09-09-2002 04:55									#55
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I for one am one of those conspiracy theorists.

UberKruX hates me

But in my opinion there is still not enough evidence that OBL or Al Quida conducted the attacks of 11/9. I still don't believe that burning jet fuel (which was gone in a matter of seconds) was responsible for the demolision like precise destruction of the WTC. I also fail to believe that a domestic airliner crashed into the Pentagon; but the remnants thereof are nowhere to be seen.
I wonder why almost all of the steel of the WTC has been recycled as scrap; so that it can no longer be used as evidence in any inquiries. I wonder why the world has not been shown the evidence that was shown to political leaders in the days following 11/9.

I honestly want to know what happened; as I don't wish to take the sugar coated version of events which has been repeated ad nausem on the TV.

	09-09-2002 04:59									#56
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Grrr, you may never get all the answers.

I've seen loads of sites "debunking" the Pentagon crash, and their evidence is non-existance. Their explanations of why it couldn't have been a plane are full of holes.

Despite the big fat imprint of an aeroplane in the side of the Pentagon, I have seen no proof for the incident.

	09-09-2002 05:09									#57
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Absense of Evidense is not Evidense of Absense.

	09-09-2002 05:16									#58
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Not fitting the facts is a bit of a downer on a theory though.

	09-09-2002 05:28									#59
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Didn't german investigations pointed out that it was not Al-Qaida but a group supported by Al-Qaida who did it, that group was also heavily motivated by Al-Qaida propaganda and has followed training courses(but not for the attack, the attack wasn't planed when they followed those trainings I think).

	09-09-2002 05:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr I still don't believe that burning jet fuel (which was gone in a matter of seconds) was responsible for the demolision like precise destruction of the WTC.

Although I can't say anything to the rest of your post other than I agree that we the peasants need to be shown the same evidence shown to the politicians...to the excerpt above I can say this: Both of the WTC jetliners, I believe, where setting out on their first flights of the day that day, and both where flying cross-country flights first so they were both ladden with highly volatile fuel for those long flights. Having a tightly confined fire burning in a skyscraper can produce unbelievably high temperatures. Considering the both towers WERE NOT built to modern fire codes (shoddy fire insulation and cited for it several times if I'm not mistaken), those same high temperatures where enough to greatly weaken the support beams, enough to partially melt them. When a support beam is no longer rigid, it can no longer support even its own weight, let alone the weight of a building. Given the unique frame design used in both towers and the spread of the fire through entire floors up and down AND wall to wall, the jetliners were most certainly enough to bring the towers down.