10-09-2002 03:35									#31
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I honestly doubt the SMC's ability to carry out a war on two fronts (re: Persia and America). I also doubt the Aztec's ability to attack America when they're in trouble with the other, bigger threats.

	10-09-2002 03:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon We should make peace with Persia asap. Send our existing military to mop up the americans in as rapid a campaign as possible. And let our core cities concentrate on Uber Island.

Don't make me check your "green card"! Your starting to sound like one of UnOrthOdOx's Persian vassals.

Has Persia discovered Espionage yet?

	10-09-2002 03:56									#33
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Reddawg I honestly doubt the SMC's ability to carry out a war on two fronts (re: Persia and America). I also doubt the Aztec's ability to attack America when they're in trouble with the other, bigger threats.

Think so?

I bet we could deal a nice blow to the Persians, send eight swordsmen and a few horsemen into America, and then start funneling units back to the Persian front.

Of course, I'm not the expert in that, which is why I posed the question to the Military Academy and would love to have some input from Aggie.

-- adaMada

	10-09-2002 04:21									#34
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quote: Don't make me check your "green card"! Your starting to sound like one of UnOrthOdOx's Persian vassals

-grumble- Just stating my honest opinion on how we can come the farthest ahead in the next 30-40 turns. I don't see how pointing out that the persians can wait makes me sound like a persian spy. I mean Im eliminating them for backstabbing us, but Im not locked into the "it has to be now" mentallity when I see other opportunities that surely won't be there later.

	10-09-2002 04:38									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't see much point in a war with the persians unless it's a war to take perpesiosehsdfh and the pyramids. That is the reason why we fight. We already have land and could get luxs from the US. but the pryramids are what we really want. And so only taking a few cities woildn't serve much purpose.

The US don't pose much threat and the SMC is more than capable of fighting a 2 front war.

	10-09-2002 04:55									#36
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I don’t know if here is the place, but I posted this in the “request maps” thread. This can be important to analyze the real situation in the Persian front. Sorry by the double post.

quote: Originally posted by Aro There's a new tactical map posted in the same place, with the Apolytonian and Persian troops (only military). I'm sorry for the delay. The thumbnail:

	10-09-2002 05:35									#37
	Put an end to popups!

nice map!

hmmm, it seems we have no 'stacks' currently on the eastern front.

	10-09-2002 05:56									#38
	Inflate your Upload Space

Considering the results of this poll, conversation between me and Aggie, and general plans I made with Togas, war will continue through the next turnthread.

Sorry that a more conclusive majority couldn't be reached (though two to one is, by far, enough to base a decision on), but I've got to finalize my orders sometime...

-- adaMada

	10-09-2002 07:03									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

They have 11 persian archers around Ubergorsk and Geofront ( 6 of them in one stack). Ubergorsk is well defended, but Geofront is not (talking about units: 1 vet spearman, 1 regular warrior. We have another regular warrior NE Geofront, as a backup.). If we could kill those archers, their cities certainly will be undefended. Our swordsman in the tile S of Geofront can kill one, maybe two archers before he dies. IMO, our problem is Geofront, but the city has walls, IIRC. Not so bad, at all.

	10-09-2002 19:32									#40
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon EDIT: Or builds the lighthouse, but I have no idea who is building it or has built it

The Aztecs have it at Tenochtitlan

	10-09-2002 19:47									#41
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by wervdon -grumble- Just stating my honest opinion on how we can come the farthest ahead in the next 30-40 turns. I don't see how pointing out that the persians can wait makes me sound like a persian spy. I mean Im eliminating them for backstabbing us, but Im not locked into the "it has to be now" mentallity when I see other opportunities that surely won't be there later.

quote: Originally posted by OPD I don't see much point in a war with the persians unless it's a war to take perpesiosehsdfh and the pyramids. That is the reason why we fight. We already have land and could get luxs from the US. but the pryramids are what we really want. And so only taking a few cities woildn't serve much purpose. The US don't pose much threat and the SMC is more than capable of fighting a 2 front war.

FACT: If we don't take Persia now, we aren't taking them until we have Modern Armor. And then it will be a struggle that will require us to have several other allies.

FACT: Persia controls more luxuries than any other civ.

FACT: Persia has the most defensible position, they are COMPLETELY surrounded by mountains or coast and only have two borders, England and us.

FACT: Persia is weak, has not yet gotten their UU, or GA, but is on the verge of both.

FACT Persia has lush grassland, highly productive hills, commerce producing rivers and luxuries, can connect to Rome and Russia via a harbor (once they realize it), can sneak attack our iron, Geofront, and Ubergorsk and has the Pyramids to accelerate their growth.

FACT:America is AND ALWAYS WILL BE an easy campaign. They have 'lush' deserts and 'highly productive' flood plains (can you ever make them poroduce a shield?). Their Great Wonders consist of Abe's rather bulbous nose.

We can take America anytime, we can only take Persia for a short while.

	10-09-2002 19:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aro They have 11 persian archers around Ubergorsk and Geofront ( 6 of them in one stack). Ubergorsk is well defended, but Geofront is not (talking about units: 1 vet spearman, 1 regular warrior. We have another regular warrior NE Geofront, as a backup.). If we could kill those archers, their cities certainly will be undefended. Our swordsman in the tile S of Geofront can kill one, maybe two archers before he dies. IMO, our problem is Geofront, but the city has walls, IIRC. Not so bad, at all.

They'll probably concentrate their forces onto one city and there are 3 squares between uber and geo. Therefore perhaps we should station our "pikemen" between the two cities and then move them to the city that they go for. 11 archers sounds alot but we should be able to pick alot of them off before they attack.

	11-09-2002 03:05									#43
	Spank the Persans and then concentrate on building Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm all for spanking the Persans and taking T, S and possibly G (and the proposed city shuffle). This will give us an advantage for when we need (not want to) to take more of there territory from them (i.e. when they get upitty again). But we need to consider SEVERAL factors here before continuing.

1) Our internal Infrastructure is in an abysmal state
2) We are still in a vast jungle and need a large space of peace to bring our current land holdings up to full speed.
3) We should keep the Americans as a semi sheild between us and the Germans/Greeks (Hey, it's better than our full northern border being against them) for now.
4) Work on Uber Island! Remember, we were lucky to get there in the first place, don't count on it happening again with a lot of Settlers & Etc. again. How much time/resources would we lose if we lost a galley with a settler/Pikeman combo on board?

After the conclusion of the Persan War, we need to keep the peace and only fight when we need to (i.e. when attacked). At least until the middle to late Middle Ages.

My opinion on this matter.

E_T

	11-09-2002 04:01									#44
	Support Apolyton

I am new here, but I believe it is in our best interest to use the combined wisdom of Targos' reasoning and Aggie's exhaustive "by the numbers" assesment of our situation to implement GhengiFarb's ONION PLAN. First we must attain current world (or at least territory) maps to avoid any grave errors or miscalculations. We should then begin prosecution of the plan fully focused on attaining the Pyramids yet reascessing our position and possibly attaining new maps after peeling each layer.

However, we must have no prejudice against ceasing the operation if ever the homeland is considered to be in danger. That said, I believe that if we start to peel away a layer we should finish it unless it would prove disasterous to do so.

Also, before entirely destroying the backstabbing Persian turncoats, we should leave them around long enough to enter trade negotiations in order to outfit ourselves with all their interesting newfangled technologies (which should be easy enough as long as the war goes smoothly, because at that point we'd have them by the "short hairs").

If at any point between layers we have to pause our glorious conquest (which I believe as previously stated should be ONLY IF THE HOMELAND IS IN DANGER) it would be best to sue for peace while gaining some cold hard cash in that deal. This would be hard to do if we don't complete a layer which is one of the reasons I think we must execute the layers entirely or not at all, one at a time. Thanks for listening.

	11-09-2002 11:38									#45
	Re: Spank the Persans and then concentrate on building Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by E_T How much time/resources would we lose if we lost a galley with a settler/Pikeman combo on board?

A lot, but fortunately, we do not have to risk such a stack. We can always use the Galley Manoeuvre ('Island Hop') to cross the sea, thereby only risking one single Galley.

	11-09-2002 22:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Aurelius Azimut [SNIP] However, we must have no prejudice against ceasing the operation if ever the homeland is considered to be in danger. That said, I believe that if we start to peel away a layer we should finish it unless it would prove disasterous to do so. Also, before entirely destroying the backstabbing Persian turncoats, we should leave them around long enough to enter trade negotiations in order to outfit ourselves with all their interesting newfangled technologies (which should be easy enough as long as the war goes smoothly, because at that point we'd have them by the "short hairs"). [SNIP]

Hasn't anyone noticed that thay have three (that's 3) cities far from their main area. Two are north of America and the other is between England & THe Aztecs. A protracted war to "take them out" will be just that, protracted (i.e. expensive).

E_T

	11-09-2002 23:23									#47
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1) We NEVER have to risk losing cargo as we have one on the island and one at home, simply move midway transfer units and each one returns to its home coastals. I belive the losing one may have to risk it in the sea but as that one will be empty and its the one form the homeland it would be the easiest to replace.

2) I only advocate taking the Persian Homeland, their various far flung colonies are not of strategic importance to us IMHO.

	12-09-2002 02:58									#48
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Those far flug cites even work in our adavantage, we can take over everything else and STILL get the techs, lets face it we might get two of those cities too, though for the record I've not made a final decison on the offensive into the persian heartland. Right now i am considering the specific of the tyre/gordium attack. To atack tyre with whole swordarmy or split and send 5 toward grodium. I'm leaning toward taking tyre and then sending the whole happy force east to visit gordium(and points east/north?).
Aggie

	12-09-2002 06:14									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Aggie Right now i am considering the specific of the tyre/gordium attack. To atack tyre with whole swordarmy or split and send 5 toward grodium. I'm leaning toward taking tyre and then sending the whole happy force east to visit gordium(and points east/north?). Aggie

I like Aggie's plan.
The best way to approach Tyre, of course, would be along the mountain route: once the archer stack E of Geofront has been taken out (either battering against our entrenched pike, or by strikes from the city), then move onto the mountain, then hop over to the mountain SE, to lay seige to Tyre from the heights. That approach maximizes defense against counterattack.

We should wage this war by throwing our elite units into battle, to try to generate leaders. Attack the archers on the mountain with the 2 elite units in Geof. Move more elite sword into Geof (from the stack E of Ubergorsk, take out any surviving archers, then grind towards Tyre.
Then perhaps bypass Sidon and head directly for Gordium. With luck, Sidon might grow, and we could take it rather than razing it.

By the way, I'd move that worker stack S of BHQ to the region as soon as their done clearing (1 turn) and roading (another turn). We should hook up the Persian acquisitions quickly, to accelerate reinforcement and clear more jungle around Ubergorsk. We will be counting on creating culture here, to help strengthen our grip on the territory we acquire from Persia.

	16-09-2002 06:36									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I see that this poll has closed and that most of Apolytonia is in favor of "continuing" the war with Persia.

Before I left, I created a similar poll with mixed results. I decided that we should at least take two cities and tech before peace would be negotiated.

I have one more turnthread to do on Tuesday, and may remain FAM after this election, but the biggest decision I have to make in my term may well be for the next turnchat.

Do we continue the war with Persia even after Tyre + Sidon + (surrender terms with) Tech?

The only logical reason to continue the war is if we push for a full conquest of the Persian homeland. If we want a short war only, now is the time to end it.

My personal feelings on this war should be well known. What I need to know is if the nation of Apolytonia has changed it's collective feelings on a war of conquest with Persia.

--Togas

	16-09-2002 07:14									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

make a new poll

	16-09-2002 07:18									#52
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MARCH TO THE SEA!

	16-09-2002 07:21									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

end the madness!

	16-09-2002 07:36									#54
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End it as we may be facing a Roman war soon enough. I am not so sure the Romans are after the Greeks yet.

	16-09-2002 07:45									#55
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As I see it this war will be pointless (well not entirely) if we don't push all the way to the pyramids.

	16-09-2002 20:27									#56
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hi ,

leave them with whatever we dont need , .......

we should try to get all we can , ......

no not the piramids , he can have them , ......

have a nice day

	16-09-2002 20:35									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If we go threaten/take the Pyramids, Xerxes will be much more willing to give us many things for Peace.

	16-09-2002 20:55									#58
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We should take all of the Persian homeland.

Why?

Because its there, silly.

	16-09-2002 20:57									#59
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Onward! I think we might be facing an ideal opportunity to mortally wound a crippled opponent, secure an invaluable asset (the Pyramids) ... and do so without riling up other civs.
Gifting Cerbourg (per ada's suggestion) might well keep Alex at bay. In any event,ff the Romans do declare war (or the Germans), then we simply make peace with the Persians. We should be able to get favorable terms whenever we want.
Meanwhile, the prospect of generating another leader, possibly setting up a Forbidden Palace on Persian territory, gives us an opportunity to become twice as powerful as any other civ on Abananaba.
And it seems to me we should be able to prosecute this war while at the same time building our central core. We can build libraries and (soon) cathedrals in the north-central region, and colonize Uber Island, AND wage war. At least it seems to m we shouldn't need to have every city on military production.
Persia's on the ropes. Let's move in now. If we don't, another civ might well take advantage of her weakened state, and take the Pyramids for themselves.

	16-09-2002 21:50									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Romans, smomans. We should take the Pyramids, Incense and Spice.

That'll give us FOUR luxuries within our territory and extras of each PLUS the Ivory.

Another GL to build the Sistine Chapel and our cities will be set!