09-09-2002 10:42									#61
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For the Canadians, I'm not saying any polls were rigged, but I am saying I don't place the gospil faith Ming does in there accuracy.

	09-09-2002 10:42									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I disagree, if true, explain New Formula Coke. So say every political pundit, yet they are often not in line with voting, or are you saying that polls are highly accurate, and thus can always predict with near certaincy an election?

If they are saying that one side has 60% of the vote, then yes.

I think I recall most US elections being "too close to call", like the last one. And the piolls were right...

	09-09-2002 10:43									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Except polls like "majority support this" merely force a bandwagon attitude on lots of people. They don't think about it for themselves, they just go with what everyone around them is saying. Which is why they're stupid and useless in the media.

And? I don't go with what polls say, and I hope you don't either. But what it does tell me is the path that a political leader is likely to take...

	09-09-2002 10:44									#64
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Actually they were projecting Bush by as much as 58%, it only became "to close" as the results came in.
The Gore support caught the pollsters flat-footed.

	09-09-2002 10:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And? I don't go with what polls say, and I hope you don't either.

I don't, but you know how many people believe those GAP commercials.

Many people in Canada, and most of the world, are sheep. They don't know what they're doing, they don't know what they're saying -- this is why the Liberals stay in power.

	09-09-2002 10:46									#66
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quote: Actually they were projecting Bush by as much as 58%, it only became "to close" as the results came in. The Gore support caught the pollsters flat-footed.

Which polls were you watching .

Three days before the election the polls were at 50-50 and some had Gore at 51%. It was all the rage on CNN's Inside Politics .

	09-09-2002 10:48									#67
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http://www.angusreid.com/pdf/media/mr020904-2tb.pdf

http://www.angusreid.com/pdf/media/mr020904-2bpdf.pdf

	09-09-2002 10:48									#68
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All the new york stations had Bush way out in front Imran, surprising as NY is a VERY democratic area.

	09-09-2002 10:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger http://www.angusreid.com/pdf/media/mr020904-2tb.pdf

I'm a bit put off with how they worded the question -- you say these people are professionals?

I see a majority of Albertans support sending forces though.

	09-09-2002 10:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 For the Canadians, I'm not saying any polls were rigged, but I am saying I don't place the gospil faith Ming does in there accuracy.

I didn't say that... However, anybody that looks at the results of any study without first reading the technical appendix of the methodology is an idiot. Without seeing the basis of a study, I won't comment on whether it provides good results or not.

	09-09-2002 10:50									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, it wasn't. Go dig up that old Poly thread, the only way we found out about the "don't know" numbers was from the Ipsos-Reid website, the news media didn't report it.

When the poll was initially reported in June, numerous media organizations mentioned the fact that people were not fully aware of the agreement.

You complained about a CBC article in September that mentioned that poll in passing.

	09-09-2002 10:50									#72
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That's exactly the way all polls are worded. They tell you the format of the test then give the question...

	09-09-2002 10:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You complained about a CBC article in September that mentioned that poll in passing.

Errm...was it really September 2001?
It was a long while ago but not that long, I think you're getting confused.

	09-09-2002 10:51									#74
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Now your back peddling, Ming.

That was what I was alluding too in the begining.

	09-09-2002 10:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Now your back peddling, Ming. That was what I was alluding too in the begining.

No I'm not... you are the one doing that. I claimed that polls can be rigged... I never denied that. I was responding to your comment that nobody has figured out how to do it right. And that's just wrong.

	09-09-2002 10:54									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger That's exactly the way all polls are worded. They tell you the format of the test then give the question...

I'd like to see a poll about seeing if most Canadians oppose the US sending troops there...

	09-09-2002 10:54									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I see a majority of Albertans support sending forces though.

Just barely...whereas a largish majority of Quebec is against it.

	09-09-2002 10:55									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'd like to see a poll about seeing if most Canadians oppose the US sending troops there...

Yup...but that's not as pressing a question.

After direct military support, the next most important question is whether Chrétien should provide diplomatic support...

	09-09-2002 10:56									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No I'm not... you are the one doing that. I claimed that polls can be rigged... I never denied that. I was responding to your comment that nobody has figured out how to do it right. And that's just wrong.

OK, I'll concede that point, but I still don't believe most are done correctly.

Parranoid?

Perhaps, but it does seem that a poll matches the agenda of whomever does the poll.

	09-09-2002 11:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 What percentage can name the "policy" exactly, that made them responcible?

Easy. American support for Israel.

Everybody knows that - you go to the poorest muslim village in Indonesia or Pakistan and they'll tell you that.

I think Canadians might have worked that out too

What amazes me is Americans haven't

	09-09-2002 11:01									#81
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if anyone ever figures out where the hell canada is, there is going to be hell to pay...

	09-09-2002 11:02									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Perhaps, but it does seem that a poll matches the agenda of whomever does the poll.

There is a simple answer for that... If the results of a poll don't say what you want them to do, you just don't release the results

Again... always look at the technical appendix before reading the results... Because if there is a bias in the poll, it is usually very obvious after reading how the data was collected and how they asked the questions.

	09-09-2002 11:03									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 OK, I'll concede that point, but I still don't believe most are done correctly. Parranoid? Perhaps, but it does seem that a poll matches the agenda of whomever does the poll.

The Globe&Mail is pretty much as centrist a newspaper you can get in Canada. It's too right-wing for me, too left-wing for Asher.

	09-09-2002 11:04									#84
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But it's pretty much the only Can. newspaper I trust to get the facts mostly right and try to avoid injecting editorial thoughts where they don't belong...

	09-09-2002 11:06									#85
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quote: All the new york stations had Bush way out in front Imran, surprising as NY is a VERY democratic area.

Then they didn't look at Zogby or CNN/NY Times, etc. I remember getting very interested in the poll numbers as they became even a few days before the general election.

	09-09-2002 11:06									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Everybody knows that ...

You REALLY need to read entire threads dear boy...

	09-09-2002 11:06									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger But it's pretty much the only Can. newspaper I trust to get the facts mostly right and try to avoid injecting editorial thoughts where they don't belong...

As a person who has spent a lot of money buying media in Canada... your trust in the paper is supported by many people. Every FAIR study I've seen shows it's one of the most respected media outlets in Canada.

	09-09-2002 11:08									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then they didn't look at Zogby or CNN/NY Times, etc. I remember getting very interested in the poll numbers as they became even a few days before the general election.

But the dopey networks were way off, the SO nearly threw a shoe through my living room TV when she saw Georgie ahead in a poll!

	09-09-2002 11:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 9-11 isn't about converting people though, it was about "punishing" the US and trying to get them to stop meddling around with other countries. Haven't you guys ever seen the videos where he rants?

Wrong. 9-11 and the videos are far more about inciting jihad and inspiring Islamic uprisings and fundamentalist movements, by demonstrating that they had the power to dramatically strike even the "most powerful" country in the world.

Bin Laden and his followers derive much of their Islamic views from the writings of al Qutb, who took Sayyid Maududi's writings on modern Islamic fundamentalism and expanded on them after his visits to the west in the late 1940's and early 1950's. This was long before the US was a major player in the middle east, and at the very beginning of US prominence in foreign policy, long before there was much to particularly hate us over.

Al Qutb's hardon for the US and the west in general was primarily based on morals and decadence. (Keep in mind this was the socially conservative 40's and 50's we're talking about - just imagine what they think of us now ) Everything from the consumer society, to the roles of women - especially all that nakedness and brazen sexuality for which the early 50's are known to the total lack of faith in Allah.

We are apostates, sinners, ones who defile the holy days and outrage Allah with our countless abominations. We are hated, to be destroyed without mercy unless we happen to see the light, renounce our wicked ways and in turn take up jihad (and no doubt prove our sincerity by martyrdom). We violate Allah's law by refusing to govern ourselves under Sharia. Our biggest "crime" (and sometimes I see his point ) is the spread of our values and culture.

The big difference between al Qutb's time and bin Laden's has been the availabity of wealth, technology and communications with which the Jihadi could develop and expand their power, and their ability to strike out.

The US was picked for two simple reasons - as the most powerful nation on earth, hitting us proved they could hit anyone. The other (and this gives China a big advantage) is that we are extremely easy to infiltrate. I doubt they would have been able to get 19 guys long term visas and into Chinese flight schools.

	09-09-2002 11:26									#90
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So the US' stance on stuff like Israel had absolutely nothing to do with it...

I've heard the "guilty of our own success" stories too many times to care anymore. Everyone but the US thinks differently, perhaps it's time to think outside the box.