13-09-2002 00:55									#1
	In case Rome demands our WM Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hello all,
It is our foreign policy to give in to any demands that the Romans make. I am in favor of this policy as it lets us postpone the inevitable war with Rome for better times.
However, it is possible that Rome will demand our TM or WM sooner or later. As I've shown before, we can get as much as ~150 gold just by selling our maps of Uber Isle if we just play our cards right, but if we give in to Rome's demand and then continue playing Rome will distribute the maps and we'll lose this precious opportunity.
Therefore, I suggest that if such an event occurs, we pause the game for a day or a day and a half for further debate and to investigate our options.

Your comments are welcome!

	13-09-2002 01:01									#2
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I agree. If Rome, or when Rome, demands our world map we must stop and consider our options.

	13-09-2002 01:30									#3
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Can you make a counter proposal to a demand? Sorry, it's been too long since I played Civ3 'for real' .

This will determine my answer a bit, though I think I already know what I'll say either way.

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 01:34									#4
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As it happens, we can't make counteroffers on demands.

Personally, if there weren't any Roman forces near our territory, I'd be in favor of rejecting the demand, then making peace ASAP.

	13-09-2002 01:38									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Personally, if there weren't any Roman forces near our territory, I'd be in favor of rejecting the demand, then making peace ASAP.

I strongly agree. We should not give in to any demands for our world map. IMO, this principle would be worth going to war over.

	13-09-2002 01:48									#6
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Damn, no counteroffer (I guess it'd have been too easy).

If Rome demands one of our maps, I think we should reject. I'd rather not incite them to war, and if it looks like they're getting close I'd gladly give them a token amount of gold to keep them off us, but I am not willing to give up our World Map, and think that (in this case) we need to stand up to Rome. If that needs to be in the current orders, then I'll gladly put it there (though I think the Prez would recognize the need in that case). Also, as Donal pointed out recently, we are now number one on the power graph. That will make us a target, but it may well also make Rome hesitant to go to war with us, especially as long as we're trouncing the Persians.

Of course, I have been known to change my mind, and if anyone is personally sure that Rome will go to war if we reject, then please post, and if you convince me we may be able to find some middle ground (perhaps authorizing a small tribute to Rome before we end the turn, or doing a twenty-turn trade).

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 03:21									#7
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Currently if Rome demands something and we reject it WE WILL BE AT WAR.

The only time that the AI lets it slide is if they are weak but Rome has built a large military and is looking for someone to attack it with.

	13-09-2002 03:31									#8
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Since everyone more experienced than I seems to agree that Rome will declare war on us should we not agree to their deal, then does anyone think that a small cash 'gift' to imrpove relations might help? Would GPT stop them from declaring war?

Are there any other nations who we have this same situation with? I used Togas' standing orders for the Demands, as perdicting wars is not something I'm good at, but those orders are a bit out of date (at least since he left, which is a good 200 years ). I'd appreciate any advice on this issue.

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 04:39									#9
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To be honest with you, the ONLY thing that could derail us from a good chunk of persia is another war. If giving gifts will help i'm all for it, especially in greece's case. Rome I wouldn't mind either. But then again I am used to playing a liitle differently so i'll let the real political wheeler dealers answer.
Aggie

	13-09-2002 06:21									#10
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I am against giving into Rome's demand for either a WM or a TM. If it means war, so be it.

I would like to keep the island unknown as long as possible to prevent others from colonizing it.

I don't object to giving Rome some gold to maintain peace.

While I wouldn't want war with Rome, I don't think we need to give up our maps just yet.

	13-09-2002 06:23									#11
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I think we'll probably be working out some twenty turn deal with Rome, which'll probably stop them from attacking us for the time being, and may improve relations as well.

We're talking it over in Shiber's 'five turn trade plan' thread.

Should Rome demand our World Map, though, I think we'd have to deny them. Hopefully we'll be able to prevent it, but if not, we may have to accept the risk.

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 06:35									#12
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Hmm... The Romans have at least two legionnaires near Cheerbourg. And a warrior. The legions aren't visible now, but they ARE there. If the romans declare war to us, those legions will take Cheerbourg. We don't have any garrison.

By the other hand, the AI can’t colonize Uber Isle before astronomy. Only humans can make that maneuver with the galleys. I never saw the AI doing something like that.

	13-09-2002 06:38									#13
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An old patriot such as myself would not be glad at all to see Apolytonia cave in to such demands. If demands arrive for our gold or our maps, we shall, I trust, refuse the Romans, whatever they threaten us. We should not allow ourselves to be coerced into giving away what it ours in exchange for nothing but fear of our enemies. If this causes war, than thus it shall be, but we must never cave into such terrorism. I only hope that Caesar will simply be pulling his bluff, but even if he isn't, the only honorable choice is to refuse his demands, and, if necessary, to fight him to keep our honor and manhood. The banana must not falter!!

	13-09-2002 06:56									#14
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If Rome fights us now they'll take every city up to Timeline before we can meet them. Not saying we won't take it back but it would be long and costly. I expect they've got somewhere around 20 -30 legions in the field right now.

	13-09-2002 07:03									#15
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You are, sadly, correct. A war with Rome would be costly. But what would we loose if we caved in to Rome's vile threats (if they are ever made)? We would, at the very least, loose our money, or some well earned technological advance...or our treasured world map. This would be a serious enough blow to us as it is. This would most certainly be a terrible choice to have to make, but I would not like to see Apolytonia bow down to these vile barbarian swine over a map.

	13-09-2002 07:14									#16
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How about this.

First thing, we'll try to make a deal or two that'll pacify the Romans.

We'll also decide now what a reasonable request is and what's not.

Reasonable: (General guidelines, the President is free to overrule these if the situation warrents)
Small amounts of cash
4 or less GPT

Unreasonable:
World Map
Terratory Map
Lots of Cash
Lots of GPT

Undecided:
Dyes (we'll probably trade them to them before we do this anyway).

Any thoughts?

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 07:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If Rome fights us now they'll take every city up to Timeline before we can meet them. Not saying we won't take it back but it would be long and costly. I expect they've got somewhere around 20 -30 legions in the field right now.

I agree with Ghengis. We aren't prepared. Could someone say how many turns till we can settle all those cities over Uber Isle? In addition, how many turns until the AI comes to Uber Isle? Approximately, of course. Depending on it, we can sell our maps… or not.

	13-09-2002 07:21									#18
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I somehow doubt the AI'll 'demand' our maps, especially if we've been nice to them -- why go to war for something so small, especially since (as far as they know) they know the entire continent?

I'd be more inclined to believe that the AI might 'demand' something else of ours, which is another good reason to trade them dyes for something -- we'd be eliminating the only valuable thing we'd have left with the exception of money, and I think we'd be able to make a larger sacrifice in that area...

History Guy, I understand your concern, but if we get into another war right now, it'd have bad affects. For one, our campeign against Persia would become troubled. We'd probably loose a few cities. I'd rather avoid that, even if it means cutting some corners I'd rather not cut.

I think I may add Greece to our list of civilizations that to accept minor demands from, just for the next few turns (where they could hurt us badly). Any thoughts on that?

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 07:37									#19
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I say that if the Romans demand our World Map, then we give it to them.

No, really. It will take them a long time to get a number of settlers up to where Uber Isle is in a galley, something like 15 turns, by which time we can build settler in our larger cities and transport them over to Uber Isle. By the time they get there, the whole place will be ours. Also, the AI usually waits 20 turns to demand tribute again. This means we should have enough time to take out the Persians and move our forces to the southern border so that we can fight the Romans if need be, when we refuse their demand.

Question: Do we know if the Romans have any galleys?

	13-09-2002 07:42									#20
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Donal, my bigger concern isn't the Romans, but that they'll trade it to other civs, who'll be in better positions to colonize it. We know the French have a galley floating around... and the Aztecs have the Great Lighthouse...

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 08:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada if anyone is personally sure that Rome will go to war if we reject, then please post, -- adaMada

I am. Rome is militaristic, very aggressive and does not like us one bit. They WILL declare war.
However, the good thing is that the AI almost never sells maps it just got right away. They'd rather wait a few turns, which will allow us a chance to sell our maps to all the other civs and reap all the gold. Yes, the price would be telling everyone else where Uber Isle is but I don't think we have much of a choice.
Afterwards we're gonna have to start sending settlers to Uber Isle en masse.

	13-09-2002 08:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Since everyone more experienced than I seems to agree that Rome will declare war on us should we not agree to their deal, then does anyone think that a small cash 'gift' to imrpove relations might help? Would GPT stop them from declaring war?

IMHO the best way to minimize the chance that they'd attack us is to trade luxuries with them. That way they won't be able to declare war against us without breaking a trade treaty and therefore they'll be less inclined to do so.

	13-09-2002 08:24									#23
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Shiber,
What about the lux. trades I proposed in your five turn tech trade thread? Do you think that'll minimize the risk?

I'm really hesitant to do a world map trade. We stand to loose a lot if the AI manages to get a city on Uber Isle -- if nothing else, it'll throw all our other cities off and mean that we'll have to go to war eventually. All things considered, I'd really rather avoid it, even if it means giving up a source of dyes for twenty turns as a gift (especially considering how many dyes we have).

-- adaMada

	13-09-2002 08:51									#24
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Some observations. We have a settler ready to go to uber right now. We will have one more fairly soon. Another one from cherbough(I sp it wrong but you know the city, I'm assuming we will change the spear to settler and rush when it is a turn from 2) will give us 3 more cities on uber within a reasonable amount of time. This would make uber ours for all intents and purposes. So though I think it is very undesirable, it is not fatal if they got a map. Only country within range are persia,france,babaylon and maybe russia. Yes the aztects could get there but a culture flip would almost be inevitable. So very soon our hold on uber will be absolute. That being said I would much prefer our knowledge of uber be kept secret as long as possible. Countries can't attack whatb they can't see. yes using these settlers will keep us from building where munich was and filling in some w/nw gaps but the rewards are impressive.
Aggie

	13-09-2002 09:09									#25
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We must never give in to foreign dogs. If they want war, then they'll get it.

	13-09-2002 09:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Duddha We must never give in to foreign dogs. If they want war, then they'll get it.

Are you simply a war monger?

	13-09-2002 10:00									#27
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Well, I am in the Hawk party.

	13-09-2002 10:06									#28
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lol, ok, thanks for answering
are you representative of Hawk thoughts and beliefs?

	13-09-2002 11:15									#29
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Ninot - I think I can answer that:

He IS in the Hawk Party.

But On Topic now, I don't believe trading our map can result in anything good. Aside from the risk/amount of time that it will take for the AI to settle on Uber - what about US getting there?

We need to perform that awkward maneouvre, and if we lose a Galley we need to build another one. This takes time, time that the AI may use to get there first. I have the most awful memories of isolated islands, supposedly entirely mine, that have been landed upon by the AI mere turns after trading my WM. I did so thinking there was NO WAY they could reach it before I did. I was SOOOO wrong. And this was at Warlord. I haven't made that mistake since.

I say no to trading the WM, and a resounding yes to minor trades to prevent us having to refuse a demand at the cost of war. There is too much that could go wrong, and with us committing to the Persian war at the moment, we may need to delay Uber Island's settling to rush troops to the front.

	13-09-2002 11:49									#30
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We have the Persians on the run. I don't feel we need to "rush" too many units to the front. The "rushing" we do do should be for Uber Island.

On the topic of WM/TM demands, I fully feel that we should trade our excess Dyes to anyone who makes us look like "we have an average military". It would be nice to get Lytons or Lpt, but not needed. We must do whatever needs to be done to prevent map demands.

On another note, the AI may not know what our map reveals, but does know if it reveals more than they already know. This is why the AI will demand map in the near future.