13-09-2002 13:21									#31
	Tired of ads?

AFAIK, when the AI demands anything, one can't propose another deal, one must say YES or NOT. If we say NOT to the Romans, they'll declare war. We couldn't support a war against the romans while we are involved in the Persian campaign.

If the Romans demand our WM, we should give it them.
Even if they or another civ erect cities in UberIsle, we have a great advantage over them : Apolyton is closer and we'll have much less corruption than they. Thus, we'll be able to fight more efficiently than they to take those hypothetical foreign cities in the future.

	13-09-2002 15:45									#32
	Got spare money?

Quick analysis:

- The Romans may or may not demand our WM or TM during the next five turns.
- If we refuse to meet their demands, they WILL declare war on us.
- We do not want to go to war with Rome. It is not a good time.
- We will have no choice but to give the Romans the maps they'll demand.
- If we give Rome the maps and then continue playing, we'll allow Rome enough time to whore our maps, thus missing the opportunity to whore the maps of Uber Isle ourselves and gain ~150 gold.
- Conclusion: in case Rome demands our WM or TM, give in and then pause the game so we can discuss the best way to whore our maps to everyone else so we can at least make money out of this mess.

Workaround:

- If we trade luxuries with the Romans (either by trading dyes to them as I proposed in my trade thread or by buying their ivory for our dyes, ~40 gold and some gpt as other people suggested) we'll be binded with a 20 turns trade treaty with Rome (note that both deals will most likely have the same effect so it's a choice between the two)
- AI civs are less likely to declare war on you when you have a trade agreement with them because:
A. They become dependant on your luxuries or on your gpt.
B. If they declare war they'll be breaking a treaty and ruin their reputation, and they don't want to do that lest noone else will agree to trade with them in fair conditions.
- Conclusion: if we sign either one of the two proposed trade treaties with Rome we might be able to work around this problem, as Rome will not present demands for our maps (or anything else for that matter) in fear that we might refuse (in which case Rome will have to declare war, which it would rather avoid now because otherwise they'll be breaking a trade treaty).

Your thoughts?

	13-09-2002 16:12									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I say trade or give the Lux if it avoids the possibility of getting into war with them now. As giving in the map is not an option.
I want us to colonize Uber Island first and then sell the maps.

	13-09-2002 17:10									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Torkkeli, full agreement.

Shiber - looks like your trade ideas may end up crucial. It's good to see that the best laid pland of men do not necessarily go awry.

	13-09-2002 17:32									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks MWIA.

	13-09-2002 23:12									#36
	Got spare money?

I have to agree with Shiber, now is the time to sell Dyes to the Romans, in order for them to be less likely to attack us. We know that Roman Units are heading our way, but not if they are going to attack us soon. I think that they may be going to attack the Greeks myself, as the Greeks are tied up attacking the Atztecs, and are actually weaker than we are. My suscpicion is that the Romans recognize that the Greeks were only a great power because of their Hoplites, and plan on taking Alex out of the fight now, before his commercial and scientific bonuses count. However, Caesar may yet attack us. The key will be if Roman units appear next to our cities in large numbers. Once they do that, they are going to declare war no matter what. However, I expect them to demand tribute before they get there, and attack then. Best to buy them off with dyes, and get them to attack the Greeks instead.

	13-09-2002 23:30									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree that Shiber's plan of using trade to contain rome is best until we get a good leg up on colonizing the Isle before we trade our world map for big Lytons. (whats the slang for Lyton?)

THe dangers of a war with Rome have much to do with how far we will carry the war in Persia. Right now, if our plans take us no further than Arbela, then we could afford a war with Rome (recognizing the loss of Cherbourg as likely) within the next 10 turns- making the big assumption they would not be able to create some sort of coolition against us. If we decide to Push for the Pyramids, then we will be engaged in persia much longe, and make the likelyhood of a coolition v. us greater, making a war with Rome a great danger.

	13-09-2002 23:55									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My gut instinct is that Rome is looking for a fight somewhere and with someone, my suspicion is that the forces we have seen are heading to a planned war. Question is it us or the greek or perhap rome just wants to do so vulturing of weakened cives(america anyone). I can't tell but suspect it is Greece they seek. But we should make a friendly deal just in case and keep on there friendly side. They truly have the scariest unit out there now. Yes immortals are bad, but if you hit them first they are no different then spearman. On the other those legions are 3/3 and hard to kill so I say lets avoid war with rome at ALL cost. Then that makes it more likely they will fight greece and who knows we could do some vulturing of our own. It would almost be worth the rop just to watch the fireworks as legions take on hoplites, almost but not quite Another thing to think about, if we were their main target they would have said hello at cherbough.
Aggie

	14-09-2002 00:03									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm all for Shiber's 'workaround' (nice analysis Shiber).

If we take that, however, we'll have to stick to our guns, and if they demand a map from us we'll have to reject. They hopefully won't declare war because of the deal, but we'd have to reject in those circumstances.

Does anyone have any objections to that idea? Also, please post if you favor the Ivory plan or Shiber's original. I'm going to try to get my orders out tonight (for real this time ), and I'd like to get one last quick feel for what people think before I write them and they go final.

-- adaMada

	14-09-2002 00:45									#40
	Put an end to popups!

I would like the ivory plan. Yes its more expensive but we could really get production going in apoly.
Aggie

	14-09-2002 01:23									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Considering the situation, I have somewhat reluctantly decided that Shiber's plan is the best course of action to take, though I do not envy the foreign minister who would have to effect this.

I also feel too that Aggie is right. This man, Gaius Julius Caesar, is an imperialist, not unlike myself, but unlike myself, he is also a warmonger. The man wants to destroy everything before him, and make Rome the world, through bloodshed. He is, I think, itching for a fight, and I think that if we were to turn down his offers, he would declare war. In fact, I believe that he would want us to turn down his offer, simply so that he can have the chance to use his legions, and destroy our empire, building up his own.

	14-09-2002 01:36									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Aggie I would like the ivory plan. Yes its more expensive but we could really get production going in apoly. Aggie

Agree that ties that Ivory to us for 20 turns and we would get first right to it when the trade expires.

	14-09-2002 05:45									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'll join the chorus supporting Shiber's plan. Lock the Romans into a luxury trade. Keep our map to ourselves. I still say I'd go to war to keep it, until we get a chance to plant at least another two cities on Uber Island (and fund a major culture rush, to try to flip any other cities on the island.
By the way, this plan suggests we should plan southern cities first, on Uber Island, forcing interlopers to plant between our cities. That way our culture would encircle them -- and they'd be forced to plant closer to our capital.

	14-09-2002 07:16									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok... everyone take a look at the first draft of my orders (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...520#post1291520) and let me know about any obvious omissions, comments, or disagreements.

-- adaMada

	14-09-2002 13:18									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We don't need the Roman Ivory. It will be a complete waste!
adaMada, you're making a mistake. The best ivory for dyes and gold trade is ivory for our dyes, 5gpt and 8g (total 108g). We're in wartime for banana's sake, we can't part with so much money for something which will be of so little use to us!

	14-09-2002 13:59									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You do not want to have a war with Rome while fighting the Persians AND rushing to settle new lands. No, no, no.

Give them what they want. It is only temporary. The costs of war with Rome (if they have 15 or 20 Legions in the field) are much, much, MUCH higher.

The willow bends with the wind and survives the storm.

	14-09-2002 14:04									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Shiber We don't need the Roman Ivory. It will be a complete waste! adaMada, you're making a mistake. The best ivory for dyes and gold trade is ivory for our dyes, 5gpt and 8g (total 108g). We're in wartime for banana's sake, we can't part with so much money for something which will be of so little use to us!

I agree, do not give cash for a luxury right now. Most of our main cities will be depopulating for settlers, will they not?

Sell Dyes to Rome for whatever we can get. Even give them to them for 20 turns. That may improve their attitude toward us and make them look elsewhere.

	14-09-2002 14:20									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You do not want to have a war with Rome while fighting the Persians AND rushing to settle new lands. No, no, no. Give them what they want. It is only temporary. The costs of war with Rome (if they have 15 or 20 Legions in the field) are much, much, MUCH higher. The willow bends with the wind and survives the storm.

Agreed.
I repeat my previous suggestion: if Rome demands our WM or TM we should comply and then pause the game so we can whore the maps to everyone else (before Rome does).

	14-09-2002 15:02									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

With the French Galley so close giving them our WM will almost certainly produce trouble on Uber Isle not counting the aztecs with their Lighthouse.

	14-09-2002 15:24									#50
	Support Apolyton

We don't have any choice. If the Romans get our WM or TM they will probably sell it around and within 5 or 6 turns all the major players will have it anyway. We might as well whore it ourselves and gain the extra ~150 gold from the trades.

	14-09-2002 21:36									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ive thought about this a few days now, and i think Shiber has it right. Capitulate if they demand, then immediately sell it to everyone else to keep them from doing it.


-----

Honestly though until someone hits astronomy I dont think we'll have to worry about them trying to cross 4 tiles of sea except for the aztecs. Which if we saw the aztecs coming, it might be worth it to sink their galley then sign an alliance with germany against them to create a buffer

	14-09-2002 21:50									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Right now, here are the current plans:

We will try to appease Rome before they deamnd anything of us. Should they demand something besides our WM/TM, we'll give it to them. If not, then we'll have to hope that our previous efforts will prevent them from declaring war. I understand that this is a controversial issue, and I wish there were some clear cut majority on this, but many well-spoken and important citizens have taken the issue on both sides.

My primary Reason for supporting the Ivory trade was Aggie's approval. I understand that we don't want to be spending a lot of money on this, but Aggie did come out and say that he thought the benefits to 'Poly were worth it, and he's the primary person who'll be loosing money (the war effort, which he is directing). Also, the Foreign Ministry will be basically footing the bill (plus a bit) through our other trades, assuming that both E_T and Shiber calculated their numbers right.

I'm afriad that someone just has to decide on the first Issue, and it's a shame that Togas isn't back to make the decision, as the people's elected representative. I've thought about it, and I think the best thing we can do is engage Rome in a generous deal, and then gamble that they do not demand our Maps, and if they do, hope that they don't declare war because of it.

On the second idea, I'm much more open. Time is running out, and if I don't change my orders soon enough then they'll stand, but if I can be convinced that the Ivory trade is worse than giving Dyes away to them, then I'd PM MWIA and also change my orders to ensure that they are changed.

I'm sorry I have to make this call. Really, I am . I'd much rather that Togas were here to decide, or that I were elected and (as such) had some standing on the issue. All the same, I've got to decide one way or the other, and the decision will be highly unpopular either way. I think this is the best compromise -- do our best to appease Rome, but stand on our policy to not trade World Maps. I hope everyone understands.

-- adaMada

Last edited by adaMada on 14-09-2002 at 21:55

	14-09-2002 23:55									#53
	Got spare money?

In that case, if they do demand it and they do declare war, I think we should be ready to sign alliances with every other northern (not southern!) power (meaning specifically greece, germany, actecs, england) that we are not at war with against them.

Why?
1) It means any legions they send will be just as likely to go greeces way.
2) It forces them to waste time fighting northern powers instead of southern ones, thus hurting their long term expansion. Assuming they lose :P

How could it backfire?
1) The other northern nations sign alliances with babylon or russia resulting in them getting absorbed

	15-09-2002 00:06									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If they do declare war, then the President will stop the chat, and we'll have to make plans... hopefully, we won't have to deal with that situation, though .

If we did, then I'd probably be inclined to agree with you, since they have enough forces to cause us serious damage.

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 00:44									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ninot lol, ok, thanks for answering are you representative of Hawk thoughts and beliefs?

Not entirely. Duddha is probably the most extreme within the Hawks. We do not oppose EVER giving into a demand, but it should be the exception, not the rule.

And MrWIA, be careful. There are a few Hawks left around besides Duddha...

I do not know if shutting down the game is the right thing to do over this, however.

Demands happen. We cannot stop and save the gameat that point, we must either leave the game running and do nothing, or come up with a pre-defined plan.

Basically we have two options:

1. Give in to the demand, then attempt to sell the map at the next available time just in case Rome did not.

2. Laugh in the face of Ceasar and incite a war.

Personally, I do not fear Rome at this point. The mighty legions are a fading force in the land. Their glory days are in their twilight, and they would be forcd to march across the map to deal with us. We even have the option of pulling Russia or the Iriquois into the battle to divert their attention. The only threat would be Rome's abilty to purchase other's services. Of those, only Greece would pose any true threat. I wouldn't mind a more focused assault towards Berlin if Otto should be foolish enough to join again. Germany is still a scientific powerhouse, and we must move to stop that soon lest we be left behind. And are we planning a golden age sometime this era or what? Golden age, bonus production gets us Sun Tzu's. That gives us better military AND more gold...

	15-09-2002 01:22									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

UnOrthO,

Do you agree with what we've decided now? Give Rome something they want (and get Ivory out of the deal), and hopefully not need to go to war, but still reject their demand should they make it?

-- adaMada

	15-09-2002 02:14									#57
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think its good compromise hopely it won't be tested though.

	16-09-2002 17:04									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by adaMada UnOrthO, Do you agree with what we've decided now? Give Rome something they want (and get Ivory out of the deal), and hopefully not need to go to war, but still reject their demand should they make it? -- adaMada

I all honesty, I haven't read through the whole thing here. I am still a bit behind after my absense. I trust that anything decided is for the best of Apolytonia, though, despite how I would PERSONALLY deal with the situation.

	16-09-2002 20:14									#59
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I all honesty, I haven't read through the whole thing here. I am still a bit behind after my absense. I trust that anything decided is for the best of Apolytonia, though, despite how I would PERSONALLY deal with the situation.

Ah, dosen't really matter anymore -- it all went through, and it all turned out pretty well (as long as Rome doesn't turn around and declare war next turn ). Thanks anyway, though .

-- adaMada