16-09-2002 06:23									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Since mid 90's nVidia hasn't always provided good quality in 2D image quality.

Nvidia has never provided 2D image quality.
The thing a lot of people don't get is Nvidia doesn't make boards, just the chip. It's up to the board vendors to put good components on the board for good output, and many board vendors do that. The el-cheapo Nvidia boards by people like MSI tend to have poor 2D quality, relative to ATI. The reason for that is ATI has (until recently) full control over what components are used, since they made the boards.

	16-09-2002 06:23									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer Don't let anything regarding 2D performance enter into your choice or you'll just be making a feel-good purchase.

That's my opinion too, but when it comes to picture quality in 2D modes, paying attention to it is worthy.

	16-09-2002 06:26									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Nvidia has never provided 2D image quality.

Actually that's true. My mistake. Let's put it this way: nVidia powered accelerators haven't and still don't always provide good 2D image quality, so you'd better be cautious too.

	16-09-2002 06:28									#94
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I would actually say the 2D output quality on my ELSA GeForce 3 is better than my Radeon 64MB DDR VIVO, especially with digital vibrance control on low.

ATI's image quality isn't a sure thing anymore, since you can buy non-ATI boards with ATI chips. If you get an ATI made board you can be pretty sure of the quality, likewise with a Leadtek or ELSA (I think they went under?) Nvidia board.

	16-09-2002 06:32									#95
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That might be the case, as I already stated that ELSA's GF3 cards have the best 2D image quality when it comes to nVidia GPU based cards. Actually the original Radeon was the first ATI card to get quite close to the level of Matrox Millenium G550, but the Radeon 7500 and 8500 did it better. If the importer of ELSA would have been shipping ELSA cards last spring, I bet I would have a Radeon 8500 card and a GF3 Ti card. Unfortunately the Finnish importer seems to have periods when they don't get ELSA cards here.

	16-09-2002 06:34									#96
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ATi does rely on pricing to get it by. The Radeon 9700 is currently the 3D king, it's also the most expensive card out there right now, too. It remains to be seen which of the top 3D card brass will have the best price/performance ratio, but this should be the only thing considered. You led Pekka to say that he'd get a good 3D card, then a Matrox Parhelia in a couple months, which is just kind of funny. Don't do that to him! It's like me waiting on support for my old Rendition Verite chipset.

	16-09-2002 06:36									#97
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The Nvidia CEO said NV30 will be the largest product launch in Nvidia's history, with a chip for every market segment. Something like 10 chip variations will be announced (supposedly at Comdex in November). I'm sure one of them will be an exceptionally good deal, like the GF4 Ti4200 was.

	16-09-2002 06:41									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer You led Pekka to say that he'd get a good 3D card, then a Matrox Parhelia in a couple months, which is just kind of funny. Don't do that to him!

Pardon me, but I guess you have misinterpeted me. I only said this about the Parhelia.

Matrox - always the same excellent picture quality.

Matrox has been outside the gaming market for years now, but their latest attempt, Parhelia-512, is actually a very promising one. I don't cover it now, but I do recommend the review in MikroBitti 8/02 (pages 84-85), the Matrox website and the reviews on Neoseeker, AnandTech and Tom's Hardware Guide.

I only recommended the reviews and said that it looks promising, as it sure does with the interesting support for 3 displays.

quote: It's like me waiting on support for my old Rendition Verite chipset.

Well, just carry on waiting. Maybe Stella Polaris will include direct hardware support for it.

	16-09-2002 06:43									#99
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I don't really care too much about this argument just as long as Pekka doesn't waste his money somewhere.

Anyway, that said, if I were building a computer for my family if they needed one now, and which I would occasionally use for games, I'd get a Radeon 8500 (unless I could find a GF4Ti 4600 for cheaper, which may be possible, I dunno).

Edit: You have touted Matrox's "picture quality" several times. It's fine, like I said, just so long as Pekka doesn't waste his hard-earned money, which is to say that the Matrox Parhelia never should have entered the conversation.

	16-09-2002 06:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer The cheapest friggin GF2 card would only have an ever so slightly noticable difference from the greatest Matrox product on earth.

I bet you haven't seen the difference between one of Leadtek's GF2 MX 400 based flagships and a Radeon 8500. The difference is easily noticable. Anyway, I guess Pekka is going to buy a Radeon 9000 based card as he said in his last post, AAMOF. He also said that he would consider the situation again in one year or so.

	16-09-2002 06:50									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer Edit: You have touted Matrox's "picture quality" several times. It's fine, like I said, just so long as Pekka doesn't waste his hard-earned money, which is to say that the Matrox Parhelia never should have entered the conversation.

The Parhelia entered the debate as we started to talk about the cards on a larger scale than Pekka's new PC. So I still consider it as good to notice it by giving a few references about it and mentioning the excellent image quality. When we talk about 3D, I have been sharing my opinion with Asher as you may have noticed.

	16-09-2002 06:51									#102
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Well I kind of haven't. I am aware of the great advances in anti-aliasing in 3D mode, if that's what you're talking about. Should I look at some "Start" button and grandmother picture comparisons, too?

	16-09-2002 06:52									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin The Parhelia entered the debate as we started to talk about the cards on a larger scale than Pekka's new PC. So I still consider it as good to notice it by giving a few references about it and mentioning the excellent image quality. When we talk about 3D, I have been sharing my opinion with Asher as you may have noticed.

and I've been saying over and over again that image quality is not that big of a deal. Pekka clearly thinks that it is, and I don't want him to be mislead.

	16-09-2002 06:54									#104
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Asher has been speaking of the Radeon series as a good alternative, and so have I. Why to mess things up with some goofy grandmother picture comparison?

	16-09-2002 06:58									#105
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Ras, here's what Pekka said: "I'll see what I can do with it [the 9000 Pro] and when the Matrox is a bit cheaper and people have more experience with it and it's qualities, I might invest to it then."

This is a silly situation, and you haven't said anything against it. That led me to believe that you were an image quality nut, a la the Mac freaks with their Photoshop quotes (though I see that you are not nearly like this). For that reason, I have jumped in and tried to point out how silly it is, and you've just kept quoting picture quality in a somewhat strange way.

But anyway, now I see that we basically agree. So everything seems in order. =)

	16-09-2002 13:16									#106
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Good that we agree.

Pekka,

just go for a Radeon 9000 based card. Here's the one I recommend on Verkkokauppa.com. And when it comes to the Matrox Parhelia accelerator, I do recommend that you wait and see how things develop as you can't take out all the power with the current games and as new cards do enter the market.

7322 - Hercules 3D Prophet 9000 Pro 128MB

	16-09-2002 14:08									#107
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It's nice to hear you are thinking about my wallet .

As I said earlier, I'm not experienced with these modern cards at all, but it still looks like my choice will be Radeon 9000 Pro. I also consulted my relative, who is a graphic designer, he said to get either 9000 Pro, or GF4. I won't be getting that Matrox since it's a bit too expensive. And I said I'd wait for a while to see what others think about it when people are having more time and experience with it, so I can make my mind again about it. Things will be different in 6 months..

	16-09-2002 14:15									#108
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So what about the audio then?

	16-09-2002 14:16									#109
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I'm going through your list of links about them. The one with FireWire option seemed good, but I'm still checking the others infos.

	16-09-2002 14:20									#110
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And I forgot to mention that information about the Hercules Digifire 7.1 can be found here.

	16-09-2002 17:09									#111
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Rasbelin, I'm about to order today .

What do you think about that MB you recommended? Verkkokauppa recommends Epox 8K3A-series with that CPU. What do you think about it? It wouldn't effect the cost. 1769 Epox 8K3A+ check it out and say what you think?

	16-09-2002 17:20									#112
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Here's 4 different reviews about it...

http://www.socketa.com/reviews/epox/8k3a+/
http://www.tweakers.com.au/articles..._8k3a/page1.asp
http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/gibbo.php
http://www.amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=186

BTW, it doesn't look bad at all.

	16-09-2002 17:23									#113
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Onko sillä muuten väliä jos emolevyn ja muistin käyttämä väylänopeus on eri? Eli tuossa sun ehdottamassa emossa ois 266, mutta sun ehdottamat muistit ois 333...
taidan tyytyä toistaseks kylläkin 256 muistia.. hommaan sitten myöhemmin lisää jos on tarvis.

	16-09-2002 17:28									#114
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ups. That came in finnish.. well you ignorant furriners, learn finnish if you want to know what I said.

Yeah Rasbe, I'm maybe getting that Epox 8K3A+ with your recommended CPU. It's even cheaper, so it doesn't really do any harm. But now I'm having a bit of hard time with memory issue. I'm maybe ordering today so that's why .
I think 256 will be enough for this packet, I'll get more later if I need. Recommend me a new memory that suits that Epox .

	16-09-2002 17:35									#115
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Here's the cheapest alternative of 256 Mb DDR-333 RAM memory. I have one 256 Mb DDR-266 memory module in one of my PC's and it has been working just fine, so it's not that bad quality after all.

6319 - Verkkokauppa.com memory 256MB DDR 333MHz PC-2700, 88 €

And the positive thing is that you get 14 days time to return it free of charge if it's not suitable or working.

	16-09-2002 17:37									#116
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BTW, could you put up the rest of your shopping list? Just asking of curiosity.

	16-09-2002 17:52									#117
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Sure. This is what I have gathered so far as what to get (95% sure):

1769 Epox 8K3A+
3493 Amd Athlon XP 2000+
7313 Hercules 3D Prophet 9000 Pro 128MB AGP
6319 256MB DDR 333MHz PC-2700
8536 Western Digital Caviar 80GB EIDE 7200rpm
1569 Aopen H600A/ST 300W ATX

So I'm still figuring out the sound system stuff, keyboard and mouse, and DVD/CD-R stuff..
But those are quite easy..

	16-09-2002 17:57									#118
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This far it looks very good. If you could add the missing parts when you have ordered, it would be nice too.

	16-09-2002 18:10									#119
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Yah, I just put them together as well..here we go:

1514 Lite-On LTD-163 16X DVD
2762 Plextor Plexwriter 40X/12X/40A
1346 Samsung/Nec 3.5" 1.44MB
1393 Hercules Digifire 7.1
2120 Logitech Cordless Desktop Optical

I have cd-r already, but it's very bad quality and it's slowly dying, and I've heard only good things about plextor plexwriter. What do you think about this set?
I think it matches what I'm looking for at the moment, and it's easier to update from there when you don't have to buy the whole set from almost scratch .

	16-09-2002 18:11									#120
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I will buy those speakers later, I'll just have to do with my crappy current ones, because I can't afford any good stuff for few months.