29-09-2002 06:12									#91
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Damn straight. Coracle was right all along, it seems . . . I trusted Firaxis. I kept the faith when all around were losing theirs. But I was let down. Badly.

DAMN STRAIGHT I WAS!!!

To all you people who had faith in Firaxis I say
Told ya. So did Libertarian, Zykla, Jimmytrick, and many others. And we got vilified and insulted for our efforts and not just by posters. Well, again,

I am not happy. I am very disappointed. I waited over five years for Civ 3, and it is the most disappointing game EVER.

Firaxis ripped us all off with a buggy beta game that was profoundly and inexorably flawed in certain basic concepts.

Without a real scenario editor in PTW I may as well delete it from the hard drive now.

	29-09-2002 06:22									#92
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Spending $30 dollars on a preorder is a very small risk for a few extra days of game playing. If it sucks (I doubt it, but you never know), I'm out about the cost of one meal or a fill up of gas. In any case, less than taking the wife and kids out to a kiddy movie that's guaranteed to suck. It's No Big Deal. If it's great, I played it earlier.

In other words, if it doesn't cost too much it isn't a rip-off??

Thirty dollars, three dollars, three cents. A rip off is a rip- off. And after Firaxis stuck it to me for FIFTY dollars, plus THIRTEEN for that joke of a Strategy Guide, last November they owe me a rebate.

	29-09-2002 06:25									#93
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Gee, I must have missed the announcement that Firaxis started publishing and setting the prices on their games and related guides...

	29-09-2002 06:30									#94
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50+13=63$

now. 9 months on a forum for 63$ hmmm.....

imagine if you get ripped off for a car or a house Coracle!!!

	29-09-2002 06:35									#95
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG 50+13=63$ now. 9 months on a forum for 63$ hmmm..... imagine if you get ripped off for a car or a house Coracle!!!

I was waiting to see how long it would be before you started using your favorite "rollingeye" emoticon again, and doing so without addressing Zulu's complaints.

Didn't take long.

It was more than $63 - with tax.

And the amount of irritation and frustration, and wasted time, is in the many hundreds of dollars.

Anyway, as I said, a rip-off is a rip-off - be it $63 or 63 cents. I have waited now ten months for Firaxis to get it right; they have made it clear now they never will. And a lot of people are none too pleased anymore.

If I got ripped off on a house or car I'd be suing. Can we have a class action suit against Firaxis??

Now, continue your ad hominems. . .

	29-09-2002 06:41									#96
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quote: addressing Zulu's complaints

i'll address them after you respond to my answers...

quote: Can we have a class action suit against Firaxis??

you could try and see where it gets you....

after the trial which you would loose, Firaxis could sue you for wrongly accusing them in public for fraud....

	29-09-2002 07:15									#97
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Uh... I just want to remember to everyone that "Firaxis" isn't another name for "Gamemakers without Frontiers".

	29-09-2002 07:25									#98
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"Sans", not "Without"

	29-09-2002 13:12									#99
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Well on the way, head in a cloud
The man of a thousand voices talking perfectly loud

Last edited by notyoueither on 29-09-2002 at 13:22

	30-09-2002 20:48									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle It was more than $63 - with tax. ... Can we have a class action suit against Firaxis??

You can have a class action suit against just about anyone you want. But I really doubt any bottom-dweller -- err, lawyer -- would take your case. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of people enjoy Civ3. It is a very small minority that doesn't. For every product on the market, you will always find at least one person who is unhappy with it.

Seriously though, I'm not trying to be a smarta** or anything, but do you realize that with all the time you've spent complaining on this forum, you could re-invested your time to recuperate your "losses" on Civ3?

	30-09-2002 22:52									#101
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quote: Originally posted by player1 So it's pretty strage why they did those things in first place.

Of course, this was done by different people than are currently working on Civ3 and PTW.

	30-09-2002 23:25									#102
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Realy?

As far as I have seen, that pretty much the same team.

	01-10-2002 02:48									#103
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That would be incorrect player1, AFAIK.

I'm not sure of all the details, but remember the original design team walked during the project. Some of the current team have been known to grumble a bit about the 'hard-coders'.

It most likely took some time to recover from the exodus. In the meantime, how much code was already done? How much was scrapped and begun again?

I am certain though that Mike came along later and began the task of 'liberating' various values for us to have access to in the editor.

	01-10-2002 11:54									#104
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Zulu, I am amazed at how you turned. On the one side I do understand your side but on the other side your tone has turned so much that I sometimes still think taht somebody else is writing your posts! It was not long ago when you pointed to the Amazon reviews and thought to have pin pointed Coracle!

Of course you have every right to complain and not to buy the game but coming from you, who lots of times told others to stop complaining has had an impact on me.

So long...


PS: I will still buy PTW, since I am not into MP too much and scenarios playing is not all that important to me.

	02-10-2002 09:15									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin You can have a class action suit against just about anyone you want. But I really doubt any bottom-dweller -- err, lawyer -- would take your case. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of people enjoy Civ3. It is a very small minority that doesn't. For every product on the market, you will always find at least one person who is unhappy with it. Seriously though, I'm not trying to be a smarta** or anything, but do you realize that with all the time you've spent complaining on this forum, you could re-invested your time to recuperate your "losses" on Civ3?

your right. firaxis doesnt make a game for your specific needs and wants. They can't possibly answer to all your demands because someone else with different taste will be demanding something else. sharing some complaints and disappoinment is okay, but it seems anywhere I go, for any game these days people whine about how this and that game should have been made to fit their needs and act as they should have soverign power to dictate how the game truely shoudl have been blah blah.

Your also right in that coracle is adding more and more to his "losses" from Civ III by wastig time sulking and complaining.

One thing I agree w/ coracle in his complaints is the bugs. Game makers in general are relying more and more in patching rather than releasing a polished game. Most of the time its minor and its more of a nuisance issue rather than a need to "call up a crusade against gamemakers who don't catch bugs" issue. I mean, they are humans too, and they let things slide, but they shouldnt make a habit relying on patching.

It bites that we have to buy an expansion for wat i feel should have been in Civ III, if any of you are familiar with diablo II, and kinds of promise they made and wat finally made it on the expansion years later... and you can accept it... sigh, any deals look good enough fer ya.

BTW, coracle, It's not like you just ate, slept, and sat on a chair waiting for PTW to come out for nine months straight... Did you coracle? cause you sure do make it sound like you did... If not then stop moaning, it wont change anything.

	04-10-2002 23:11									#106
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btw, no one's answered my question on map exploration - will we be able to set how much of the map is explored by each country, and which civs have already been contacted? Pretty crucial for scenarios, if you ask me...

	07-10-2002 21:53									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II One thing I agree w/ coracle in his complaints is the bugs. Game makers in general are relying more and more in patching rather than releasing a polished game. Most of the time its minor and its more of a nuisance issue rather than a need to "call up a crusade against gamemakers who don't catch bugs" issue. I mean, they are humans too, and they let things slide, but they shouldnt make a habit relying on patching.

I somewhat agree with you, but somewhat disagree. Let me explain.

I agree with your assessment of gamemakers in general, in that they are relying more heavily on patches to "perfect" a product. However, I think most of them do this due to several reasons.

First, it is becoming more and more difficult to develop a quality game. Given the vast array of hardware on the market now, it becomes harder and harder to develop a game that is compatible with 99.9% of video cards, etc., so they gear the game toward the hardware product with the highest market share. Also, there is an awful lot more development, design, and test time that must go into a software product in today's market, versus the cheesy games like "Time Bandits", "Adventureland", etc. games of yesteryear (although some of them had awesome replayability).

Second, it is extremely hard to test a product in-house for the same types of bugs that could otherwise be caught by consumers. This is one reason I was surprised that Firaxis didn't offer a select group of consumers to beta test Civ 3 prior to its release. Some companies are so small and have such a rigid timescale that they can't afford to go through a rigorous beta test cycle. Still, Firaxis is certainly a reputable company, and one would think that they would have made time for a true beta test.

Third, the overwhelming majority of companies are not attempting to take advantage of the consumer as many would claim. However, I will admit that those few companies that do so really create a black mark for the honest ones. For instance, I was appalled with the bugs that existed in Pool of Radiance 2. Some of them (notably the installer/uninstaller) caused irreparable damage to people's systems. The bugs that exist in Civ 3 are trivial compared to those in PoR. I could go on and on about how peeved I was with UbiSoft, but it'll get a bit OT. I can GUARANTEE that Firaxis did the best job they could with the lifecycle timeline set by Infogrames, so we have to at least give them credit for not releasing another PoR.

	08-10-2002 00:03									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin This is one reason I was surprised that Firaxis didn't offer a select group of consumers to beta test Civ 3 prior to its release. Some companies are so small and have such a rigid timescale that they can't afford to go through a rigorous beta test cycle. Still, Firaxis is certainly a reputable company, and one would think that they would have made time for a true beta test.

Firaxis falls into the category of a very small company that had to work to a rigid time scale by the publisher. In addition, (the rumor goes that) most of the original team that was working on Civ3 up and quit to form their own company and the remnants had to meet the original schedule.

FWIW, they are having a beta-test for PTW.

	08-10-2002 22:18									#109
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm In addition, (the rumor goes that) most of the original team that was working on Civ3 up and quit to form their own company and the remnants had to meet the original schedule. FWIW, they are having a beta-test for PTW.

Hrm, I must have missed all this info.

	09-10-2002 17:32									#110
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it's all good

	10-10-2002 02:52									#111
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Are you telling me someone was actually dumb enough to buy a Prima strategy guide? Jesus. I thought it was common knowledge that Prima almost *always* rehashes whatever is in the book that comes with the game. In fact, sometimes they don't even re-hash. Mafia's strat guide that I browsed at the store had word for word a whole section in it from the game book.

If you're stupid enough, you deserve to get ripped off. How else do you think Prima is able to put out the guides *before* the game comes out???

	10-10-2002 03:43									#112
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and yet he brings it up nearly every post!

	11-11-2002 16:32									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Wow. I didn't know that. Jeez. Firaxis continues the rip-off and sinks to levels that surprises even me.

But they donīt surprise ME. What I hear about the 30$ patch is EXACTLY what I have learned to expect from Firaxis. Shoddy work, much promised, little delivered, buggy, ... WELCOME TO SIDWORLD!!!!!

	11-11-2002 16:48									#114
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I was wondering about all you guys that are nothing but complainers (I am not talking about the ones that do iit every so often but about the ones that are constantly doing it), how are you in your life? Do you go around and complain about everything that you see? Are you also so critical of yourself and your work as you are of others? Do you ever see anything positively before going on to b**c about that? Did you ever find anything perfect in life? (If you did you should count yourselves as lucky). Last but not least don't you have something better to do than to sit around and b**c about Civ 3 and its makers all the time, over and over again?

So long...

PS: I never had one single crash or problem with Civ 3 and I'll be buying PTW when it comes out here in Germany. It may not be perfect but I still like the game.

Last edited by The Pioneer on 11-11-2002 at 17:27

	11-11-2002 16:57									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune But they donīt surprise ME. What I hear about the 30$ patch is EXACTLY what I have learned to expect from Firaxis. Shoddy work, much promised, little delivered, buggy, ... WELCOME TO SIDWORLD!!!!!

Dredging up Coracle posts to slag something?

Man, you do need help.

	12-11-2002 23:35									#116
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Dredging up Coracle posts to slag something? Man, you do need help.

Haha nye, I bet Coracle is busy playing CivIII/PTW 24/7. But only because he "hates" it. Yeah right. Funny how some of the ppl that complain the most are the ones who play it the most.

	13-11-2002 01:41									#117
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Dredging up Coracle posts to slag something? Man, you do need help.

Are you always so fast in judging people?

Fact is, I did a search for the PTW thread with the most replies, read through it, and agreed the most with Coracle (though I am even still less impressed with CivIII the original). I will not buy PTW, before it is down to $5, and perhaps not even then. To charge anything at all for a patch is an effrontery (though it is exactly what I expected from Firaxis). Still no real editor, MP not quite working, few new features, I mean: what is NOT bad about this? Enlighten me, o wise one!

	13-11-2002 02:33									#118
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How anybody can call this a patch is beyond me...

	13-11-2002 02:52									#119
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I do not see how anyone with that stance can beenlighten about it. It would seems you are locked in and that is fine. I am not even saying your are wrong, only that taking that stance means you are making the juding for us.

	14-11-2002 04:14									#120
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I will not buy PTW, as I am tired of being jerked around by Firaxis. Judging by the bug thread and many people on the forum, PTW doesn't work as advertised. If you want to buy it now and wait for it to be patched, more power to you, but for me $30.00 is a bit steep for a few new civs and the privilege of being a beta tester.

I will wait for the inevitable combo bonus package "Civ III: Shaft the World" or whatever they are going to call it a year from now. By that time the bugs will be squashed and the game should run nice and smooth.

In the meantime I will play 1.29f.

Last edited by MosesPresley on 14-11-2002 at 09:25