21-09-2002 17:19									#1
	What do we think of PTW now? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Would I be right in thinking that the following things are NOT going to be in PTW:

Fixed diplomacy
AI/event scripting
Setting the time increments
Setting the start/finish date

If this is true, then Civilization III will most certainly NOT have scenario creation capabilities. Which proves the likes of Coracle and JT correct, I'm sad to say. And who cares about the WW2 graphics, when WW2 scenarios (or any scenarios, for that matter) are now virtually out of the question? There's already plenty of excellent fan made tanks and whatnot, so why do we need these graphics for a scenario that can never be? And bearing in mind the moaning about lag with 16 civs, how many people are going to want to play with 24? And PTW's trump card, it's ace up the sleeve - multi-player? I don't really care - I'm not big on mp games of any genre. I probably will play a few games of Civilization III multi-player, but to me the single player game is much more important.

	21-09-2002 17:55									#2
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Are those things really not going to be in PtW? (I've been away for ages and haven't had any news)

If so then that is really very sad. To make a decent scenario it is surely essential to have fixed diplomacy. There is no point in having a WW2 scenario if Germany can't start off at war with England and ends up joining forces with America to invade Japan.

I'm more looking forward to MP, to be honest, but playing cool scenarios with other human players would be fantastic .... alas it seems unlikely if these things are not in the editor.

	21-09-2002 20:11									#3
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Mike said that setting time rate and date was going to be in. The others weren't.

	21-09-2002 20:40									#4
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But they PROMISED things like scenarios from any time and full scenario capabilities.

Today i join the army of Coracle.

	21-09-2002 21:15									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

double post

	21-09-2002 21:18									#6
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No, they said that diplomacy was on the "wish list" on the previous chat. I asked what the wish list was, it was the things that they would put in if they had the time (i.e. after PTW).

Define "full scenario capabilities". As a professional software requirements analyst, that is too nebulous a term to be useful. Anyone can interpret it differently.

BTW, they said setting start and end dates and time rate are going to be in PTW.

Your legal right as a consumer is to not buy it, if this is that important to you. It isn't to me.

	21-09-2002 21:45									#7
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double post

Last edited by Caliban on 21-09-2002 at 21:51

	21-09-2002 21:48									#8
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect Today i join the army of Coracle.

Lord help us! They are already walking among us! And they are recruiting new zeals!

	21-09-2002 22:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Caliban double post

Is this the thread of double posts

	21-09-2002 22:59									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

*Sigh* I could smell this foul stench in the air in May!

I was concerned when I read through the FIRST chat because they spent more time talking about what WASN'T going to be in the expansion pack than what was.

It seems like Firaxis is trying to charge us $29.99 for an empty box!

	21-09-2002 23:12									#11
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It's your $29.99, don't spend it if there isn't enough in the box for you. I'm going to, based on what has been said will be in there.

	21-09-2002 23:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Off hand, how much do you think Firaxis makes per game sold? I'm guessing much less than $5 per copy.

	22-09-2002 01:34									#13
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Of course I'll buy it. I was just a little upset when i wrote the previous post.

	22-09-2002 02:19									#14
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quote: It seems like Firaxis is trying to charge us $29.99 for an empty box!

multiplayer doesn't sound 'empty' to me.
I don't care about scenarios, I care about multiplayer though.

	22-09-2002 02:43									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, if they plan on having another expansion, then I'll wait for that, since it will probably have all the things PTW has. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the price to go down to like 15 dollars or less. It doesn't seem to me like PTW is worth 30. Multiplayer is nice, but there are other games I can play multiplayer (and probably ones that are more balanced, considering some of the new UUs).

	22-09-2002 04:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Blue Moose Well, if they plan on having another expansion, then I'll wait for that, since it will probably have all the things PTW has. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the price to go down to like 15 dollars or less. It doesn't seem to me like PTW is worth 30. Multiplayer is nice, but there are other games I can play multiplayer (and probably ones that are more balanced, considering some of the new UUs).

I doubt that the 2nd xp would have the new civs included.

I am looking forward most to the new civs and UUs and other tweaks, I could care less about scenarios and mp.

Yes, i know that I could create 8 new civs with UU's.
How long would that take me?

I highly doubt that I could finish them (and do a professional job) in 6 hours, which is how I judge the expense. If I had a min. wage job, 6 hrs =30 bucks, the price of the XP. Such a project would probably take me with my limited skills at least 100 hours? I really have no idea. But that's just how I rationalize the cost.

Everything else to me is just gravy.

	22-09-2002 15:36									#17
	Re: What do we think of PTW now? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Would I be right in thinking that the following things are NOT going to be in PTW: Fixed diplomacy AI/event scripting Setting the time increments Setting the start/finish date

This would be very disappointing

So what can we actually change in PTW when it comes to scn making? Are time rate and date the only new options?

Or are there other confirmed things?

And Firaxis should definately say if they plan to add the missing things like events etc. in another expansion, it is not fair that a lot of creators waste their time with creating stuff or plans that will not work without proper support...

	22-09-2002 17:41									#18
	Got spare money?

Why dont we do a bit suggestion on improvement list. I tired to start one but no one (except one replied). The First post should be updated and edited every time someone come up with a new suggestion. Maybe things should be weigted, so the most wanted things com first/have highest score.

Im sure they will fix much in upcomming PTW patches.

	22-09-2002 18:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Yes, i know that I could create 8 new civs with UU's. How long would that take me? I highly doubt that I could finish them (and do a professional job) in 6 hours, which is how I judge the expense. If I had a min. wage job, 6 hrs =30 bucks, the price of the XP. Such a project would probably take me with my limited skills at least 100 hours? I really have no idea. But that's just how I rationalize the cost.

And if you have a job that pays better than minimum wage this argument becomes even more compelling. The whole opportunity cost thing.

Another thing to factor in is that within 2 weeks Best Buy will surely have it as the special of the week for $20.

	22-09-2002 20:00									#20
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IMO, the scenario-editing abilities we have since 1.29 patch are the scenario abilities we'll get with PtW. I think they'll give some editor improvements in the patch following PtW, but the biggest improvements (such as a scripting language) will come in the second expansion "Write History". This is pure speculation, but wouldn't "Write History" be a consistent name after "Play the World" ?

	22-09-2002 22:06									#21
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as angry as i am over all of this, i really want multiplayer.

no use in avoiding it, i'm buying PTW the second it comes out.

	23-09-2002 00:14									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by rob.derosa Is this the thread of double posts

Yes, and you broke the chain! Traitor!

	23-09-2002 07:15									#23
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From www.gamesman.co.nz:

quote: * Eight new Leaders including: Genghis Khan Temujin, King Hannibal, Queen Isabella and King Brennus will challenge your diplomatic and combat skills * Eight new Civilizations: Represented in four eras, each Civilization features new units for even more strategic depth * Multiplayer: Face off against the best Civilization players worldwide with multiplayer modes like Elimination, Domination, Regicide and King of the Mountain * Multiplayer Modes: Includes Turn-Based and Simultaneous game types and appearing for the first time in a Civilization game, a Turnless mode * Complete Scenario Support: Create scenarios from any time period, including those outside earth's history

There is scenario support

	23-09-2002 10:12									#24
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It is truely sad that these editing features will not be in PTW. If they are not, Civ3 will be a doomed game as the community will die. If Civ3 is not to become a classic, as it cannot become without these features, then I am afraid that the entire Civ legacy will die and Civ4 will never arrive.

	23-09-2002 16:08									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why in the world do you think that Civ4 won't happen because of a lack of diplomatic editing in the PTW box?

Civ3 may not be a classic in your mind (I feel differently, as do others, but you're entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong ), but it sold like crazy. Civ3 made buttloads of money for Infogrames. Rest assured that they will want to keep cashing in on the franchise later. Decisions on whether or not a new game gets made is based on projected sales (which in the case of a sequel will be based on the sales of the earlier titles in the franchise), not whether the "community" made a lot of cool scenarios.

I feel confident that there will eventually be a Civ4 (probably a couple of years after the third expansion).

	23-09-2002 16:14									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not everybody is interested in scenarios.
In 99,99% of the cases I prefer to start a new game in 4000BC with a settler.

	23-09-2002 17:09									#27
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Like Tiberius, I almost always play a normal game (sometimes I do play rules mods, though) starting at 4000BC with a random civ. Even when there will be a lot of good scenarios available (and there will be), I'll most likely keep doing this.

I know that to some of you who are really into scenario building and playing this comes as a shock, but you really are a small minority of Civ players. Even the most popular mods and scenarios have been downloaded a couple of thousand times at best (SnOOpy's Terrain, AFAIK). Looking on the bright side, some of you (and you know who you are), will get a fair amount of exposure/usage when your creations are put on the PTW disk.

	23-09-2002 19:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Like Tiberius, I almost always play a normal game (sometimes I do play rules mods, though) starting at 4000BC with a random civ...

Me too. The thing that attracts me to the Civ games is the exploration of the unknown; I'm not a fan of pre-defined maps when it comes to playing Civ.

I'm not interested in multiplayer, either.

	23-09-2002 22:19									#29
	Got spare money?

Hrm yeah I have to say I'm not too concerned with MP or with Scenarios, and I'm most definitely gonna buy PTW, I just don't know when. I mean I'm not really too hard pressed to buy it, because the only things I really need added/fixed in the current game is diplomacy. I just can't help but get pissed off that I automatically declare war on any Civ that uses nukes (unless I have an MPP with them). And yes, I do include that as part of diplomacy, since I'm apparently declaring war.

So in summary I can honestly say I'll buy PTW, but I feel really let down that diplomacy wasn't dealt with in any way, shape, or form.

	24-09-2002 01:23									#30
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My biggest problem is the lack of faith in the community - or rather, the lack of true interest in the community. Imagine, for example, Morrowind without the editing community. Think back to the days of Doom, and imagine if id software would've taken legal action against people making level editors.

Besides that point - some people like tinkering with their games, some people like playing the game as it was shipped and never even using the internet to update the software, some people can't live without multiplayer. One thing we all want in a game is free will - going down a path in the game, and not feel like you're being pulled down it unwillingly. Civ has always had this appeal from the start, giving you a truly random experience right out of the box, and we all love that. GTA3 wouldn't be much if you could only do the missions and nothing else.

Expanding the editor now allows for so much more creativity in later expansions. Instead though, we need to wait yet again, as small as the community of editors (and it's only getting smaller) is, which means in the next expansion (if there even is one), only the creative minds of 20 guys will be used again, instead of literally thousands of ideas.

I'll end here with this note: Of course I'm buying PTW. I've bought every Civ game (not any of the CTP series tho) and every expansion that was. The first night having Civ 1, my brother and I were up until 2am still figuring out the aspects of it. I'm very passionate about the civ series, and since I pay for it, I have a right give my ideas on how it can be improved. I'm not interested in multiplayer too much for the simple reason that in today's ADD culture, I find it hard to believe that many others would want to spend 6 hours playing civ online (I know there are people out there who will, but not as many as I'd like there to be!). I'm very interested in airports, radar outposts, etc. - and the new civs and bigger maps, just so I can really mix it up. I just become disappointed when I find out that the scenarios I play now are as good as they can get without more hard-coding.