22-09-2002 00:37									#1
	Our spies report that Persia has acsess to Iron Got spare money?

With Persia having Iron, THey might be able to upgrade to their UU. We need to consider this when fighting the war.

E_T

	22-09-2002 01:42									#2
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My guess is that the English are trading their only iron source to the Persians.
It would still take them a few turns to produce immortals, and we have knights. Plus, their immortals have only 2 defense and cannot retreat from battle while we can, and their units are most likely regulars.
The Pyramids are too good to give up. We'll have to wait and see what Persia can come up with in terms of troops before we decide to call the war off for a while.

	22-09-2002 01:56									#3
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Persia in under terrible pressure from war weariness, this slows their production. They are not religious so if they chose to switch they will have to go trough anarchy. In regent level it's 5 turns, in monarch it's 4. What level are we on? either way its at least a few turns of zero production.

They are also heavily weakened by the war.

Conquering the center of their empire first would certainly make it nearly impossible for them to concentrate even a small number of units to counter attack. Additionaly it would "break" Persia in separate fractions, only one of those fractions would be able to get Iron (IF it gets Iron, taking Pasagradae should cut away all international trade, rite?).

	22-09-2002 02:06									#4
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Emperor; 3.
Good point about war weariness. They must be torn by war weariness by now and have very weak production capabilities.
However, we'd have to cut them off from England completely to cut them off from their supply of iron. Capitals just flip to the next best city when they're captured.

Last edited by Shiber on 22-09-2002 at 02:15

	22-09-2002 02:22									#5
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We should cut off their trade with England for sure. Their UU is also useless for all the reasons Shiber noted.

Are we going to conquer the Persians or weaken them?

	22-09-2002 02:31									#6
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Well, not useless... just not useful enough to turn things around.
Regarding cutting off trade with England: too bad we haven't invented trade embargoes yet...

	22-09-2002 02:41									#7
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The Persians are trading with the Germans and the English. The Germans have TWO sources of Iron, and the English have one source. If they have iron, probably is coming from the Germans.
Btw, E_T, where did you find those spies?

	22-09-2002 02:45									#8
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How? They don't have a trade route with Germany.

	22-09-2002 02:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber How? They don't have a trade route with Germany.

I don't know how, but they are... See this (is from the last save):

	22-09-2002 03:09									#10
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The bloody Persians must have airports then!

Seriously... I'm confused as much as you are. This simply isn't possible.
I guess the trade with Germany must be some other trade agreement, not one which involves luxuries and/or strategic resources.

Last edited by Shiber on 22-09-2002 at 03:20

	22-09-2002 03:14									#11
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Still this won't make an immediate difference in orders as you will have noticed we are going to pasargadae, from there we will cut of routes south.(that too is in the orders) Those who make the chat please,please make sure forces do do this. Shiber if you make the chat can you make sure this is done.
Aggie

	22-09-2002 03:21									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber The bloody Persians must have airports then! Seriously... this isn't possible. The trade with Germany must be some other trade agreement, not one which involves luxuries and/or strategic resources.

Yeah, it's really weird. Maybe one of the "strange effects" mentioned in the discussions about the 1.29 patch. I don't know. Could someone with 1.21 look this screen?
Btw, what kind of other trade agreements? Not RoP's, the advisor has a section to this. Are they paying tribute, maybe? A peace treaty with some gpt involved?

	22-09-2002 03:27									#13
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It is possible that persian city of sido is attached to nearby aztec city.Im not quite sure how updated of a map i am looking at but if we trade maps with aztecs we could figure this out. Wat is the status between aztecs and persia? and is it possible to trade from persian harbor to third nation who has harbor who has road networked to germany?

	22-09-2002 03:29									#14
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Aggie: Sure. I'll scream like a baby if they defy you unless something REALLY drastic happens, in which case we'll have to stop playing anyway.
Aro: I have 1.21 and I did check it right after I saw your first post. Now at least we know that this isn't a weird 1.29 effect.
Calc II: yes, it's possible, but the Persians don't have a harbor. If they did we'd see an anchor icon next to the city that has a harbor, regardless of the status of our maps.

Last edited by Shiber on 22-09-2002 at 03:43

	22-09-2002 03:29									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Still this won't make an immediate difference in orders as you will have noticed we are going to pasargadae, from there we will cut of routes south.(that too is in the orders) Those who make the chat please,please make sure forces do do this. Shiber if you make the chat can you make sure this is done. Aggie

Who is worried? Me?
Absolutely right, Aggie. As you said before, we will have Knights and Swords. And don't worry about the chat, Commander... your orders will be done.
Pasargadae, you're the next!

	22-09-2002 04:07									#16
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Thank you aro and shiber I know things are in good hands, also make sure all units are under at least a pike when they move, that way if an immortal shows up on a road we will be safer. I really really don't want a golden age for persia. Also if taking pasargadae doesn't cut off all roads south(by my estimate one goes outside its territory, please use a knight to pillage that road).Thank you E_t this information is very immportant.
Aggie

	22-09-2002 04:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Aro The Persians are trading with the Germans and the English. The Germans have TWO sources of Iron, and the English have one source. If they have iron, probably is coming from the Germans. Btw, E_T, where did you find those spies?

I can't tell you, I'd have to tickle you to death.....My spies are secret...

I just went and asked it they want to deal and it was on the screen. They don't have Horses or Dyes. And they are trading through English roads.

E_T

	22-09-2002 04:22									#18
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Anyway, I think I figured out how this deal could be possible. We can trade with the English (the trade advisor says so), but we aren't directly connected with them, the connection pass through the Persian territory! In the same way, they are trading with the Germans through our territory.
Hmmm…btw, if this is possible, we will not stop their trades cutting the roads near Pasargadae, because we are connected with the Persians by many other roads.
Damn!

	22-09-2002 04:26									#19
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that can't be right, because a trade can't go through an enemies territory. Could somebody go back and see for how long they have had iron so we can figure out what they can have. Going backmis legal i presume. Also i think germany must connect to england in the north and thus we are connected to england through germany and persia is conenct the same way.
Aggie

	22-09-2002 04:30									#20
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Could our map be outdated, as said by Calc II? In our maps, the English aren't directly connected with anybody, only with the Persians. How can we trade with them?

	22-09-2002 04:48									#21
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If the Germans and English are connected somewhere that would explain the trade routes.

	22-09-2002 05:00									#22
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Our maps might be outdated, however, Persia has potential trade routes to: England, Germany, Greece, Rome, and France ... but NOT the Aztecs, not America, and NOT Russia (who has a harbor).

I'm just as stumped. Especially about the Roman trade option.

--Togas

	22-09-2002 05:02									#23
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Aggie: If England was connected to Germany we'd be able to trade with England as well.

My theory: England is selling its only source of iron to Persia through a road (which we can see on our maps) because they figured they won't need iron for the next 20 turns, now that their wars are over.
Persia's trade agreement with Germany is most likely gpt they're paying for a tech that they bought from Germany.

	22-09-2002 05:05									#24
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Could it be that routes are marked potential even if they pass through enemy territory and they cannot be used right now? It makes some sense, since the route does exist, it just can't be used right now, so essentially it's a potential route...
No, wait, that doesn't explain why they can't trade with Russia. Forget this theory.

This whole thing gets a 13 out of 10 in Shiber's Scale of Weird.

	22-09-2002 06:14									#25
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check out sidon a city virtually adjacent to aztec territory... if sidon has harbor by any chance it mite be possible

either way we need updated info on map for us to know whether ai is cheating or not... ai may speed build but im guessing they are not cheating when it comes to trade routes

	22-09-2002 06:51									#26
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More importantly, we gotta stop the flow of iron into persian hands. Immortals could still make the campaign ugly and more casualty we take will effect our domestic improvement.

how persia is getting iron is important but how persia may not get iron is more important to me now. and if we can solve without figuring how persia is doing this (i.e some diplomacy with germany) then i wont even care to bother wondering.

	22-09-2002 09:07									#27
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Um, Knights have a defense of 3 and remember just one victory gives them a GA. Or did they already hhave that, can anyone tell me. Anyways, they can inflict some serious casualties if they're lucky.

	22-09-2002 09:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Aggie: If England was connected to Germany we'd be able to trade with England as well. My theory: England is selling its only source of iron to Persia through a road (which we can see on our maps) because they figured they won't need iron for the next 20 turns, now that their wars are over. Persia's trade agreement with Germany is most likely gpt they're paying for a tech that they bought from Germany.

That won't work. If you have 1 source of Iron (like we do), and you go to trade with someone that doesn't, then Iron shows up in the screen but with a Quanity of Zero. You don't have any surplus to trade with.

E_T

	22-09-2002 09:37									#29
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No one (AI or Human) is allowed to trade away their last sourse of anything. If England only has one sourse of Iron, they keep it for themselves. The only country who could be trading Iron to Persia is Germany, as they are the only one with extra Iron.

Germany sends the Iron to a port city with a harbor, it goes to England via an English port city with harbor then goes over road to Persia.

In spite of all this, we must continue our fight for the Pyramids and Lux. At this stage of the war, Persia getting Iron is like the Germans developing the U2 and jet fighters in WWII. Too little, to late.

The only difference to our plan I think we will need to make is more emphisis on upgrading our Horsemen to Knights.

Stay focused!
The Power of the Banana is with us!

	22-09-2002 14:56									#30
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You can trade away your last source of a resource or a luxury. Of course then you won't have it for yourself while the deal lasts.
I tested this with another game and it's true.