22-09-2002 15:35									#1
	Renegotiating peace treaties Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Now that we've discovered how to renegotiate deals (see this thread), Togas has requested me to check how much each nation would be willing to give us if we renegotiate peace with them for better terms.
Foreword: AFAIK, renegotiating peace and asking for more money does not hurt your relations with the other leaders, as long as you ask for a deal that the foreign advisor says will work. I've tried this on other saves and I never made a leader angrier at me after renegotiating peace for more money.
Another thing I'd like to explain before we get to the stats is my list of priorities when checking the deals. My first priority was hard cash (lump sum), since we're at war and we need to upgrade our units and rush new ones. My second priority was gpt. Finally, I took world maps.
Now, for the stats:

Renegotiating peace treaties
Rome
Will give: 40 gold.
Greece
Will give: 6 gold (all their money) and their world map.
Aztecs
Will give: 12 gold (all their money) and their world map.
Iroquois
Will give: 3 gold (all their money) and their world map.
France
Will give: 10 gold (all their money) and their world map.
England
Will give: 19 gold (all their money) and their world map.
Russia
Will give: 27 gold (all their money), 7 gold per turn and their world map.
Babylon
Will give: 9 gold (all their money) and their world map.

Total revenues
126 gold, 7 gold per turn and world maps.
I think we need to update our budget.

Exceptions
Germany
They're currently offering us 32g + 6gpt. However, the peace treaty with Germany will only expire in two turns, so I believe we should discuss terms with them next turn (270AD) and not right now.

America
They would offer us 16g + worker (American) + WM, but since we're planning to attack America in less than 20 turns we shouldn't strike such a deal right now.

	22-09-2002 16:32									#2
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Holy Snot!

Talk about something for nothing!

I'm going to have to look into doing this in my own games

	22-09-2002 17:45									#3
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Well, it's not something for nothing.
They give us their gold and their women, and in exchange we don't beat the crap out of them. Or so we say.

	22-09-2002 18:05									#4
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Wow. Great plan, Shiber .

This is one I will accept unconditionally, as long as you leave America in the exemption pile .

One question, though -- would an AI be more likely to declare war on us if they're paying us for peace? The fact that they pay us for peace now means that they're scared of us, but what about ten turns from now? Are they smart enough to go to war so that they could stop paying tribute?

Also, someone should run Russia through and see what other trades we can get out of them -- if they're able to pay 7 gpt, then we should find out if there are any other trades we can incorperate into the deal and perhaps get a bit more gold on the side (assuming they have any)

-- adaMada

	22-09-2002 19:08									#5
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War: well, if we take gpt or luxuries/resources from them then it might make them more prone to attack and get rid of the payment, but if it's a one-time payment (gold, maps or tech) then I think no.
Russia: I didn't see any other possible deals. If someone else does I'd be happy to hear about them.

	22-09-2002 19:12									#6
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Fantastic, Shiber. I'm interested in all this money, of course, but all those WM without we give them our map... It's excellent!

	22-09-2002 19:19									#7
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Shiber,
Can these plans wait another five turns? Has Togas seen them and added them to his orders? Did he say what he wanted you to do with the plan he asked you to draw up? I just found out he won't be there for the turnchat, so...

-- adaMada

	22-09-2002 19:34									#8
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Yes, he clearly said that he wants me to write this down. I PM'ed it to him as well but he hasn't replied yet.
In any case, we can't wait five turns. Now that Persia has iron and at least one pikeman (and probably immortals soon) we need to blitz through their mainland fast, and for that we need knights.
IIRC, he asked me to make this plan after I gave him two examples of what we can get if we renegotiate peace treaties (I gave him Rome and Russia's numbers). He said excellent, draw up a complete list of what we can get, so I don't think he'd mind.
In any case we should still get the approval of all the deputy ministers of the foreign ministry (we have yours already) as well as maybe run a quickpoll in the chat today.

	22-09-2002 19:51									#9
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. I think Togas would probably approve of the deal itself, but I'm not really sure if anyone but him has the authority to write it into his orders.

I'm the Vice-Minister, and when he's not here I write the orders, but I don't know if that means anything in a case like this. The wording of my job title in the office thread would imply that it does, but I'm not sure that that's intended to give me that power.

Togas' orders also have a standing clause that, if a minor emergency comes up in a turnchat, allows OPD/a ministry official to decide on the issue. Again, nothing specific about this sort of situation.

To be perfectly honest, I'm do believe that Togas would approve of this deal, but he's not here to remove the little bit of doubt, and I don't want to overstep our authority. OPD, any judges who are hanging around, anyone else who may know -- do you have an opinion? I'll e-mail Togas and ask him to quickly look at this issue if he can in the (minor) chance that he checks his e-mail before the chat.

-- adaMada

	22-09-2002 20:07									#10
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I doubt Togas or anyone would have an issue with renegotiating peace with any civ we have no borders with. Unless we are planning to finish the Persians somwhow in only 20 turns and immediately war with someone else, I think all of these should be fine. Speaking as just a citizen here, but Germany would be a great one to renegotiate - we need to make sure there is stll something stopping them from attacking (the rep hit), and it couldn't hurt for Greece also.

In brief, I would be surprised if any of these were seen as contentious at the least. It is the case of gold and (maybe) WMs for the opportunity cost ONLY of attacking someone else in the next 20 - not a likely scenario at all.

	22-09-2002 20:07									#11
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I would like to keep France & Babylon out of the Renegotiating of Pease for a bit. If we use this in combination for trading techs with them when either get Theology. If we use that in combination with trading them Chivalry, we should get them to give us Theology.

THat's my reasoning for that.

As for them declairing war on us, the time limit on peace would have them breaking a treaty against someone. Does anyone know how the different Civ A.I.'s look at each other in their inter relationships?

I do know that if someone declares war on us while we are in a Republic Government, we first get 5 turns of increased happyness, then 5 turns status quo, then we start to get war weariness in 5 turns increments (at least in 1.29f). So we actually get ten turns of grace if someone declares on us.

E_T

	22-09-2002 20:11									#12
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Oh, man, what a situation... We have an excellent plan needing the approval of the FAM.
Wait a minute... Ada, you are the Vice-Minister. In case of Togas's absence, you are the FAM. IMHO, you can do it, because you actually have the power. It’s a big responsibility, I know, but you are in charge, you have the experience and knowledge necessary. And the guts, too

	22-09-2002 20:22									#13
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Aro,
I'm debating that now. I wish a Judge were here :-\.

The wording of my job is that I'm the FAM if Togas isn't present, but I'm not sure if 'isn't present' includes times when he's not away, but not on 'poly (power hasn't been explicitly turned over to me). OPD also has the power to make minor decisions to deal with events in the turnchat. I think this means we can do it, but I'm honestly not all that sure...

Two other notes:
I've just been informed that someone else ran these tests, and could get more cash out of the AI than the amount that Shiber posted above. Don't ask why there appears to be a numerical difference in this case (I'm honestly not sure -- different versions of the patch, possibly?), but I'd ask that (if we do this plan) the President check the values on his computer and go with the highest.

Shiber, do you have any comments to what E_T said? It's a temporary net loss of twenty gold, and I think he might be right about making a better deal using this later, so I'd be inclined to accept his modifications.

-- adaMada

Last edited by adaMada on 22-09-2002 at 20:29

	22-09-2002 22:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Aro, I'm debating that now. I wish a Judge were here :-\. The wording of my job is that I'm the FAM if Togas isn't present, but I'm not sure if 'isn't present' includes times when he's not away, but not on 'poly (power hasn't been explicitly turned over to me). OPD also has the power to make minor decisions to deal with events in the turnchat. I think this means we can do it, but I'm honestly not all that sure... Two other notes: I've just been informed that someone else ran these tests, and could get more cash out of the AI than the amount that Shiber posted above. Don't ask why there appears to be a numerical difference in this case (I'm honestly not sure -- different versions of the patch, possibly?), but I'd ask that (if we do this plan) the President check the values on his computer and go with the highest. Shiber, do you have any comments to what E_T said? It's a temporary net loss of twenty gold, and I think he might be right about making a better deal using this later, so I'd be inclined to accept his modifications. -- adaMada

hi ,

hmmm, you might have a point , ....

have a nice day