23-09-2002 08:46									#31
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But shouldn't you have wanted the Free Democrats, which is the Classical Liberal party, to win? That'd make a little more sense for you.

	23-09-2002 08:48									#32
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Yes, but I'm of course talking about the two candidates who had a chance - Schroeder is the lesser "evil", for lack of a better word, from my perspective.

	23-09-2002 08:53									#33
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Well the FDP would have been part of a coalition if Schroeder had lost, so at least there would be one party in government semi-friendly to freedom.

	23-09-2002 08:56									#34
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Yes, that's true, and I also am in favor of Stoiber's tax cuts policy...although calling any European political party friendly to freedom, in the sense that I mean freedom, is quite a stretch to say the least.

	23-09-2002 10:32									#35
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ok....as a german i have to post here...

so first: forget all this classical-liberal-freedom-party=fdp garbage.
it isn't that way anymore since years:
economy is the only topic where FDP remained being the freedom party after mid 90s. anywhere else the greens took over these positions:
the FDPs allowance was crucial to the rising of observation possibilities for example.

second: according to german post-war political traditions stoiber was the most conservative candidate imaginable.
he has a touch of a racist and is doubted to be ultra-conservative in youth and family politics - fortunetly german women pushed him back to the "hey-lets-prohibit-the-pill"-pit were he came from.

all over germany and all over the world is a discussion about FRG's weak economy taking place, but in fact many germans do not see it that bad.
an important poin is that all over the 90s there were one big fear: the 2 and a half trillion d-mark mountain of debt that made any initiative impossible.
schroeder has taken away this fear from us germans , by making more reasonable budgets and as a traditionally fearful people we are thankful for that.
and now tax cuts will be the next big thing which kohl didn't got done in 16 years amd which schroeder has already started with the last four years.

the success of the greens if not of the whole government is also based on fair treat of minorities and the handling of the minor pollitical topics:
the greens have succeded in many points of their all-time political agenda:
-homsexuals have gained equal rights
-a new immigration law has been made (which was very friendly towards all the turks, croats,bosnians living in germany for years if not for decades)
-an end to the usage of nuclear power has been found
-thanks to energy taxes on oil and gas germany is far ahead of the 25% reduction of co² emmissons and has found a methode to keep financing of pensions stable.

in fact german economy isn't that weak it is allways shown as. a great part of that "weakness" is simply fear that our economical and social system cannot survive angloamerican neo-liberalism in the future.
it is a bit funny: 10 years ago everybody (even in germany itself) believed we wounld not make it another 5 years that way...5 years ago: the same...
and now it hasn't change that much all over the time and it still works...
...so don't be so sure we are near an economical breakdown


fez? what word are you searching for?
scheiße? ficken?

Last edited by seraphin on 23-09-2002 at 10:37

	23-09-2002 11:06									#36
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seraphin, but doesn't Germany have to make some very painful changes to its economy in order to secure future prosperity (that's what all our pundits say, anyway).

And what is the status on the integration of the East?

	23-09-2002 11:09									#37
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quote: schroeder has taken away this fear from us germans , by making more reasonable budgets and as a traditionally fearful people we are thankful for that.

Schröder himself is a pure media manipulator. He has no other ability, but apparently it suffices to get elected. He had to good ministers, Eichel for finances (and he was the driving force behind the sort-of-consolidation of the budget. But remember, the same happened after Kohl took over under Stoltenberg. No difference.), and Fischer in foreign affairs. The rest was the usual crap. The Kohl government was neither better nor worse.

quote: fez? what word are you searching for?

Let's circumvent the autocensor by excessive use of other languages. Pimmel Cheney is certainly worse but uncensored ... And finally the french pronounciation of Putin will be censored

	23-09-2002 11:10									#38
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Pimmel Cheney? I will use that from now on...mwuahahaha

	23-09-2002 11:13									#39
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You should also note that the SPD always tries to give the right to vote to groups that probably will elect them. In the 70's it were the 18-21 year's old, in the last four years due to massive naturalizations (some of them long should have been, for others it might be better if they never were). No "human rights" involved on either side. It is simply party politics.

	23-09-2002 12:31									#40
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Rats.

	23-09-2002 14:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Fez ****. How do you say that in German?

I think "scheisse" is ok.

	23-09-2002 15:30									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Like Hitler, Schroeder know well how to stir up the rabble against a foreign threat.

LOL

Despite I´m satisfied with the results, our justice minister who made those stupid statements should be fired asap. However, I rather think Schröder will take probably the more silent way out - he will assign simply another person for that job now, after the elections are done, to solve the problem. This entire mess has probably costed him a secure victory, such statements aren´t popular at all here. The same goes for antisemitic remarks of one of the leading politicians of the free democrats - they costed them a lot of votes.

	23-09-2002 15:37									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov seraphin, but doesn't Germany have to make some very painful changes to its economy in order to secure future prosperity (that's what all our pundits say, anyway).

Guess who pays them.

	23-09-2002 19:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro LOL

I was hoping people would find it amusing.

quote: Despite I´m satisfied with the results, our justice minister who made those stupid statements should be fired asap.

I doubt that anything is going to happen to the minister by the wording of Schröder's apology.

	23-09-2002 20:09									#45
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"all over germany and all over the world is a discussion about FRG's weak economy taking place, but in fact many germans do not see it that bad."

Don't know how it could be much worse.

"I doubt that anything is going to happen to the minister by the wording of Schröder's apology."

She has already fallen on the sword.

	23-09-2002 23:06									#46
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I'm somewhat suprised to hear that.

	23-09-2002 23:17									#47
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Looks like the price is going to be valued higher than one justice minister...

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727088

Now we know who Bush was talking about when he said "their credibility is on the line" and who ignored it.

Doubt there was a congratulatory note on the election.

	23-09-2002 23:19									#48
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Schroeder being elected will cloud Germany's economic future. He is a typical "no changes necessary" politican and wants to increase the size of the state. Stoiber is a better leader and the province he managed (Bavaria if I am not mistaken?) is evidence of this.

	23-09-2002 23:27									#49
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I read Jacques Chirac is so genuinely fed up with Gerhard Schröder and his shennanigans that he refused to pickup the phone when Schröder called to discuss a plan to save a bi-national phone company from a threatening bankruptcy.

The cooled relations between France and Germany will likely continue after this, and could severely slow down the development of the EU.

	23-09-2002 23:28									#50
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I wonder how well he'll be able to repair the damage he caused on the foreign policy front during this election.

quote: Bush-Hitler Remark Shows U.S. as Issue in German Election By Steven Erlanger New York Times | International Friday, 20 September, 2002 COLOGNE, Germany, Sept. 19 -- A reported remark by a German minister comparing President Bush's tactics over Iraq to those of Hitler envenomed a close-fought German election today and demonstrated how anti-Americanism had moved to the center of political debate here. The regional newspaper Schwabisches Tagblatt said today that Chancellor Gerhard Schroder's justice minister, Herta Daubler-Gmelin, had said: "Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler also used." Her remarks were reportedly made on Sunday during a conversation with representatives of the trade union IG Metall. In a statement to the newspaper, Ms. Daubler-Gmelin, 59 and a member of the chancellor's Social Democratic Party, denied comparing the two men, but did not deny comparing their tactics. "I didn't compare the persons Bush and Hitler, but their methods," she said. Later tonight, she told ZDF television, "I just did not say that; it is as simple as that." Mr. Schroder said tonight that he believed Ms. Daubler-Gmelin when she said she had not compared the two men. He added that anyone who compared Mr. Bush to a criminal would have no seat in his cabinet. He did not elaborate. In Washington, Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, was asked at a news briefing about the minister's comments and the effect of such election campaign statements on the German-American relationship. After speaking of the importance of the long relationship, he added, "But this statement by the justice minister is outrageous, and it is inexplicable." Germany's conservatives, who are challenging Mr. Schroder in national elections on Sunday, immediately called for her resignation. Friedbert Pfluger, a Christian Democrat, called Ms. Daubler-Gmelin's statements outrageous and said, "This is what happens when the government allows the moral coordinates to deteriorate so far." He was referring to Mr. Schroder's decision to distance Germany from the United States over Iraq, a course that has proved politically rewarding even as it has opened a sharp rift with Washington. Mr. Schroder has said Germany will not take part in any attack on Iraq, whatever the United Nations decides. His stand has appealed to broad stretches of a postwar German population bred to abhor war, but it has also brought charges of "German unilateralism" and estrangement from its principal allies in the United States and Europe. With voting on Sunday in a very tight election, the debate over how much damage Mr. Schroder may have done to Germany's relations with its partners, in particular with the United States, has become ever more passionate and shrill. The chancellor has clawed back to a slight lead over his conservative rival, Edmund Stoiber, in large part by running against the Bush administration and its plans for war and "regime change" in Iraq. Mr. Schroder says that under him, Germany will neither help in any war against Iraq nor help pay for one. Pollsters now say Iraq -- not the weak German economy -- has become the most important issue for those still deciding how they will vote. Is this shift a reflection of a significantly changed Germany, no longer beholden to its conqueror and liberator from across the sea? Or of a chancellor in trouble using a delicate issue to try to squeak by? Or of a Bush administration that is failing to bring along its own allies? Or of a true friend to America, as Mr. Schroder insists he remains, who is simply speaking truth to power, as a real friend should? Mr. Pfluger, a lifelong devotee of close German-American ties, is beside himself. "This is a disaster," he said. "In a matter of weeks, Schroder was able to deprive Germany of its reputation of dependability which was developed over many years, from Willy Brandt to Helmut Kohl." As for Germany's position in the European Union, some outside experts say they believe that Mr. Schroder has also done harm by casting doubt on Germany's reliability at the "inner circle" of European nations along with France and Britain. William Drozdiak, the executive director of the Transatlantic Center, a Brussels-based study center of the German Marshall Fund, said Mr. Schroder was "definitely causing harm, especially to relations with France, Britain and the United States." The chancellor received some comradely political support today from the British prime minister, Tony Blair, who told the newspaper Tagesspiegel: "Schroder has set out his position on Iraq, and we respect that. I certainly have never seen Germany isolated in key issues in the past. On Iraq, Germany is raising questions which it does make sense to ask. There may well be differences of opinion, but I have no doubt that we will ultimately all work closely together." But the publisher of Tagesspiegel, Hellmuth Karasek, blasted Mr. Schroder for electoral cynicism, "German unilateralism" and "cheap anti-Americanism" in words that echoed through the German policy elite. There are signs that Mr. Schroder is already trying to patch things up with Washington. His foreign minister, Joschka Fischer, a member of the Green Party, met briefly with Mr. Bush at the United Nations and reportedly tried to reassure the president that Germany remained a close friend. Officials say Germany quickly ceded jurisdiction over the captured Yemeni Ramzi bin al-Shibh to the United States to show its continuing commitment to the war against Al Qaeda, despite differences over Iraq. Mr. bin al-Shibh, who lived in Hamburg, was also wanted in Germany in relation to the Sept. 11 attacks. German officials say the country is now more likely to take over command of the international security force in Kabul from Turkey early next year to show solidarity with the United States. But in such a close election, even Mr. Stoiber has been loath to praise Mr. Bush's plans for Iraq and sound like a warmonger. Today, he said he would deny Washington use of German bases for a unilateral attack on Iraq. "Certainly never if the Americans go it alone," he said. He followed Mr. Schroder in saying, "Now the aim is to destroy weapons of mass destruction, not the toppling of a dictator." Mr. Stoiber has, however, firmly supported the need for the United Nations Security Council to defend its resolutions and provide a mandate for any military action -- but only if the goal of unconditional arms inspections fails. If the Security Council votes to allow military force, he said, "I believe it is impossible that Germany would stand alone and refuse to accept a U.N. mandate." In essence, his stance is like that of the French president, Jacques Chirac, a fellow conservative who has awarded Mr. Stoiber a decoration for his services to France. Germany's longstanding desire to be a postwar force for peace is part of the legacy of the Nazi period and the American occupation. The use of the German military in any action without a United Nations mandate is constitutionally forbidden. It has been Mr. Schroder and Mr. Fischer who have pushed Germans to take up a larger international role, including taking part in the Kosovo war and the use of German special forces in Afghanistan. Mr. Schroder emphasizes that Germany has nearly 10,000 troops abroad, almost exclusively in peacekeeping duties. Now the chancellor has undermined that extension of Germany's military role, American officials say, while personally offending Mr. Bush.

	24-09-2002 12:13									#51
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This is getting quite funny. The Ari line seems to be evil, evil "bush-bashing" Schröder, when all the chancellor himself said was that he has no interest in going adventurous in Iraq.

I would have thought the Bushies are more cold blooded, instead they are playing the insulted sausage like a 3 year old.

And if Dubya's beloved US really was so great, why bother ? As the proverb goes:

Was stört es die Eiche wenn sich die Säue an ihr reiben ?

Just that America does not seem to be the oak tree in that proverb.

	24-09-2002 18:57									#52
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"when all the chancellor himself said was that he has no interest in going adventurous in Iraq"

Implying that Bush was being adventurous, even when no course of action had been chosen. It was an unfair characterization of the reality.

I think you know the score. Exorcising the national political demons by slagging your friends unfairly is OK. Just don't expect them to return your phone calls after you're done.

	24-09-2002 19:00									#53
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"Implying that Bush was being adventurous, even when no course of action had been chosen."

So he said, at worst, that when Bush seeks adventurs in Iraq, Germany will not participate. Horrible insult. Does Shrub's mum change his diapers still ?

"Exorcising the national political demons by slagging your friends unfairly is OK."

Friends ?

	24-09-2002 19:01									#54
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dp

	24-09-2002 19:07									#55
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"Friends ?"

I'm willing to listen to other proposals.

"So he said, at worst, that when Bush seeks adventurs in Iraq, Germany will not participate."

The context of it was that Shroeder was trailing in the polls and that Bush wasn't seeking adventures in Iraq.

Whatever you say about Bush, I don't think you could say he's a bad politician. Bush knows that Shroeder won the election on the back of the American relationship. Again, this is OK. Just don't expect that relationship to be healthy when you're done.

	24-09-2002 19:11									#56
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Enemy or lackey. That's all the Bushies know.

"won the election on the back of the American relationship"

Bollocks. He won it on the floods and the Iraq issue.

And I suppose you do not know what Stoiber had said about Iraq....

	24-09-2002 19:28									#57
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"That's all the Bushies know."

Why do you use these throw-away lines?

"He won it on the floods and the Iraq issue."

Yes, how they presented the Iraq issue is what we're discussing. The minister's Hitler comments weren't the only place they strayed into unfair characterizations. Rather, this was the end of the line of a string of unfair characterizations.

We were basically wondering why we were being dragged into an election where the most important issue was the ineffectiveness of the government to find jobs for 4 million.

Oh wait! I've discovered the reason! Is it because Shroeder was trying to deflect German public opinion from domestic issues?

"And I suppose you do not know what Stoiber had said about Iraq..."

From what I have heard, he said he would leave his options open, that he was well disposed towards Shroeder's views, but that these views about American policy should have been communicated most forcefully privately with the administration.

Stoiber seems like a sensible fellow.

	24-09-2002 19:33									#58
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"The minister's Hitler comments weren't the only place they strayed into unfair characterizations. Rather, this was the end of the line of a string of unfair characterizations."

Like what ?

"Oh wait! I've discovered the reason! Is it because Shroeder was trying to deflect German public opinion from domestic issues?"

You really need a question mark there ?

"From what I have heard, he said he would leave his options open"

He said no SC resolution, no use of US bases in Germany. He backpaddled later on this one, but don't forget, even the prime puppet does not want that war. The Bushies are pretty alone with this. Schröder or Stoiber.

	24-09-2002 20:11									#59
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"Like what ?"

It took a pretty bad turn with the "adventurous" comments a couple of months ago.

"He said no SC resolution, no use of US bases in Germany."

Which is a fine position to take, at the end of the day. Germany has national political imperatives just like everybody else.

But we're talking about the way it was said by a sitting Chancellor. Bush thinks Shroeder played the "Anti-American" card, which trumped Stoiber's xenephobia card. A total cheap shot for Shroeder.

"but don't forget, even the prime puppet does not want that war"

Blair? Bush is marching to his tune, not the other way around. The Brits have played this very skillfully, both domestically and diplomatically.

	24-09-2002 20:14									#60
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"But we're talking about the way it was said by a sitting Chancellor. Bush thinks Shroeder played the "Anti-American" card, which trumped Stoiber's xenephobia card. A total cheap shot for Shroeder."

First Stoiber did not play the xenophobia card. Second, every second sentence from US politicians is "we are better than everyone else" - you don't get a childish reaction on that one. Third, not every criticism of the Bush admin is anti-american.

"Blair? Bush is marching to his tune, not the other way around. The Brits have played this very skillfully, both domestically and diplomatically."

Nope. Blair is in damage limitation fights on all fronts.