07-02-2003 00:14									#361
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quote: having a picture of someone who triggered the death of nearly 3000 people, of which about 800 were jews and over 2000 were arabs (2nd intifada started when he walked over a for muslims sacred area) is to me a clear sign that you support his politics and his actions.

You know it is a sacred area to jews as well. But JEWS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN! despite it being under Israeli control, supposedly.

I had to disguise myself as a tourist to visit the temple mount. Is that fair?

	07-02-2003 00:58									#362
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i know it's also sacred for jews. and it's a shame that they're not allowed there.

but ariel sharon with his past as a general responsible for the the slaughter of several hundred to thousand arabs (they call him something like "the butcher of xxyyzz" (can't remember exactly)) ...

it's like if bin laden would go walking around in new york. or milosevic would go to sarajevo or zagreb. there are some people who just should stay out of some places.

maybe i'm being a bit unfair. the temper (on both sides) was boiling up allready quite a while. natanjahu wasn't really a man of peace and obviously barak didn't manage to make the situation better. and the palestinian extremist organisation just needed a reason to trigger their so called freedom fighting. so it might not only be sharon's fault that people die, but he did triggered it, there's no doubt in that.

i'm sorry that this thread has come this far off topic. it cascaded up to here and i'm just trying to explain my opinion with reasons (and not like some others with discreditations).

peace?

	07-02-2003 01:12									#363
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ONE LAST TIME... stick to the topic and not current day events. This is an on topic forum... NOT THE OFF TOPIC FORUM where political discussion like this IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

It looks like some people want to get restricted... So don't tempt me by continuing a political discussion here.

So who wants to be restricted first... and I'll even throw in a PCR for free...

SO GET BACK ON TOPIC AND OFF POLITICS... GOT IT!

	07-02-2003 01:31									#364
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ok, sorry ming...
most of my posts were on topic, i "sinned" just very few times...
sorry again

quote: This thread will only end when Firaxis commits, by God...

i doubt one of the patches will have a hebrew civ inside. if it comes, then in a further expansion pack (or some kind of "game of the year" or "gold edition" or whatever).
however it would be embarrassing for them to release the same game with only 7 new civs.

so my possible scenarios:
a) no new civs in official releases (most likely)
b) 8 to 16 civs in a new release. but you still only can play with a maximum of 31 civs (unlikely, but not impossible)
c) they'll remove the hardcoded limit of 31 civs, create some own ones and get a few civs from the community. probably they could gather up to 24 new civs!!! (highly unlikely)

option c) is my favourite. it would be a good reason to buy a new computer and play a giga map (e.g. marla's world) with all 48 civs...


edit: hey, what's funny: this thread, one of the largest in the civ3-civilizations forum was by a guy who only posted twice. impressive what one of these posts acompished. DL? link: http://apolyton.net/forums/member.p...&threadid=62615

	07-02-2003 01:33									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Ming ONE LAST TIME... stick to the topic and not current day events. This is an on topic forum... NOT THE OFF TOPIC FORUM where political discussion like this IS SUPPOSED TO BE. It looks like some people want to get restricted... So don't tempt me by continuing a political discussion here. So who wants to be restricted first... and I'll even throw in a PCR for free... SO GET BACK ON TOPIC AND OFF POLITICS... GOT IT!

Sorry to have contributed to any off topic talk. But can we still discuss the proposed Israeli Civ agression level?

Please don't kick us off... this thread is great...

	07-02-2003 01:43									#366
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If you want to talk about current events, do it in the OTF... it shouldn't be hard to find a thread on the subject

If you want to insult members of this site... take it somewhere else...

If you want to make racist comments... you will get restricted...

If you want to talk about proposed aggression levels... fine. But if this turns into a political discussion again, I'm just going to restrict ANYBODY, who in my opinion, is talking politics after this post. So be very careful, because it's a matter of MY opinion... NOT YOURS.

Good luck...

	07-02-2003 01:44									#367
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I'm a stickler for "official" products, so I do hope that Firaxis chooses option "c".

But I'll buy anything they put out, even it's only got 7 civs in it. I guess I'm sort of pathetic in that way...

	07-02-2003 02:20									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Ming If you want to talk about proposed aggression levels... fine. But if this turns into a political discussion again, I'm just going to restrict ANYBODY, who in my opinion, is talking politics after this post. So be very careful, because it's a matter of MY opinion... NOT YOURS. Good luck...

Um, ok, I think I'm done posting in this section. See you guys later.

One last post: I think that David Ben Gurion should be the leader of a modern Israeli civ.

	11-02-2003 20:41									#369
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Ok. I have actully remembered what this tread actully was origanaly. Personaly, I do not wish to see an Israel civ unless we were getting to the '100 Civ options' level. On a real map, Isreal would just get in the way with Egyptians, Babylonians, Arabs and Ottomans and would quickly fall to one of these. (Natural fault of the Jews desiding to settle there!) It would be a waste of an Civ slot. I rather see an Incan, Ethaopiain or Malian civ instead.

	11-02-2003 23:01									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Silpy Ok. I have actully remembered what this tread actully was origanaly. Personaly, I do not wish to see an Israel civ unless we were getting to the '100 Civ options' level. On a real map, Isreal would just get in the way with Egyptians, Babylonians, Arabs and Ottomans and would quickly fall to one of these. (Natural fault of the Jews desiding to settle there!) It would be a waste of an Civ slot. I rather see an Incan, Ethaopiain or Malian civ instead.

That's only if you favor keeping the "five civilization blocs" as they are...

	12-02-2003 05:56									#371
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In Ctp you can play them... Why not a Libanese civ too?


IMO, there should be many many more civs in civ3.
They did not do their homework at Firaxis.

	15-02-2003 17:55									#372
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quote: i know it's also sacred for jews. and it's a shame that they're not allowed there.

It's a shame? just imagine what the uproar would be if muslims wouldn't be allowed there!

quote: but ariel sharon with his past as a general responsible for the the slaughter of several hundred to thousand arabs (they call him something like "the butcher of xxyyzz" (can't remember exactly)) ...

You probably are thinking Sabra and Shatila. There is a trial in Belgium about that one.

Quite funny that they have pursuited no legal action whatsoever against the actual commander of the massacre, a lebanonese christian, that was killed a while ago. He was a minister in the lebanonese government. Did anyone pursue him? did anyone try to put him on trial?

The claim that Ariel Sharon personally knew about a massacre that was committed by around a hundred or so troops max, considering the fact that around a thousand people were killed. ( an infantry company ), while he was the minister of Defence commanding tens of thousands of soldiers is hillarious, even if the soldiers were Israeli. But they weren't Israeli, they were a lebanese faction with which Israel was allied.

Of course, facts don't matter, and arabs still hate Sharon. Remember "The Jenin Massacre", where Israeli soldiers supposedly massacred hundreds of palestinian civilians? remember how the UN said it was not true? I wonder how many people believe that in the arab world. After all, saying "we're always right" is the easiest and the most natural thing to do.

	15-02-2003 18:09									#373
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azazel,
i was tempted to answer, but then i remembered, that ming has already warned us about taking this thread OT. don't like the idea of a PCR

on-topic: is anyone doing or has anyone already created a good middle east or israel scenario? it could be an interesting game.

	15-02-2003 18:10									#374
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Oy vey, someone bring this thread to an end. If we want to argue about fiction and fact, and the only sides being espoused are "everything Israel does is right" and "everything Israel does is wrong," then this thread is really not going to contribute to anything.

I normally don't like blanket statements, especially as used by politicians, and particularly over Israel, but come on people: both sides are to blame.

Let's get back to Civ.

	15-02-2003 21:29									#375
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf don't like the idea of a PCR

Hi, I dunno what PCR means really.
Is it something bad?


Btw, I will stay on-topic. In the Free-Civ for Linux you can also play the Israelis. There are many more civs to choose between than in the official Civs. But free-civ has no cool UU though.

	17-02-2003 03:21									#376
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oh, damn, I forgot. SORRY MING.

saberwulf : PM me.

	22-02-2003 23:15									#377
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Israel was and is irrelevant. It was (and is) very small, etc. There are som many other civs to include before Israel, the following:
Incs
Netherlands
Belgium
Cuba
Poland
Golden Horde
Cambodia
Brunei
Siam/Thailand
Ethiopia
Polynesia
Tibet
Austria/Hungary
Pakistan
Afghanistan
Portugal
Bantu
Ukraine
Oman
Denmark
Canada
Australia
Republic of South Africa
Bysantium
Cordoba Caliphate
Prussia (or is this considered part of Germany)?
etc.
etc.
etc.

	22-02-2003 23:36									#378
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The Cordoba Halifat? and how would you place them and the spaniards on one map?
Cuba? come on.

Say... where are you from ?

	23-02-2003 00:12									#379
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Do you know how many important scientific achievements were done by Cordoba? They basically brought gunpowder to Europe. They also had colonised much f North Africa. As on placing them in one map with Spain, it would be possible - Spanish capital in Madrid and Cordoban - in Cordoba. If you are talking about full countries, then you can't place Roman and Ottoman empires, Russia and Mongol Empire, USA and Iroquis at one time as well. Cuba also had an impact on world history, they almost started WW3 and they also demonstrated thei imperialism in Angola. Cuba is also larger than Israel. Well, probably considering into account "the old Israel", Cuban and Israeli impact would be about equal. But there are many other states which had equal or more impact than Israel.

	23-02-2003 03:13									#380
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abdul,

ah... interesting. my favourite of your list are the 'bantu' because noone proposed them until now. although these native africans never had a powerful civilization, it still could be a very interesting alternative to the zulu.
same with the inuit. never powerful, but definetly interesting civ to rule the world

but otherwise i disagree. israel did and does have bigger impact on world history than many of your list. even if you personally dislike israel, you can't dispute their importance and influence...

	23-02-2003 03:30									#381
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Israeli importance? Influence? It was and is relatively small country. It done not much influence at all. If not thr UN resolution allowing Jews to annex Palestine and Jews would still be scattered all over the world, no one would now even suggest to add Israel, even if most says that they suggest so because achievements of "the old Israel". Achievements of current Israel are null. Many, many current states did more influence and many more historical states did so. "The old Israel" also did not much influence. Just because they talks in news about Israeli cruelity much that doesn't means we should add them. Otherwise we should also add Zimbabwe, etc.

	23-02-2003 23:27									#382
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Fair enough Abdul... or we could play Ethiophia, with Haile Selassie as a ruler. Just like in CTP. Or Sweden with Karl XII like in EU2.

	23-02-2003 23:53									#383
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Thanks ThePlagueRat :-)

	24-02-2003 16:00									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz Israel was and is irrelevant. It was (and is) very small, etc. There are som many other civs to include before Israel, the following: Incas Netherlands Belgium Cuba Poland Golden Horde Cambodia Brunei Siam/Thailand Ethiopia Polynesia Tibet Austria/Hungary Pakistan Afghanistan Portugal Bantu Ukraine Oman Denmark Canada Australia Republic of South Africa Bysantium Cordoba Caliphate Prussia (or is this considered part of Germany)?

I agree with some countries on your list but not all of them: I completely back you in the Cordoba issue and Germany is basicly considered to be Prussia. But I think you missed a few: what about : Chile, Mali, Assyria, Armenia, Hittites, Athenians, Phoenicians, Hittites, Visigoths, Ostrogoths

	24-02-2003 17:27									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz Israel was and is irrelevant. It was (and is) very small, etc. There are som many other civs to include before Israel, the following: Incs Netherlands Belgium Cuba Poland Golden Horde Cambodia Brunei Siam/Thailand Ethiopia Polynesia Tibet Austria/Hungary Pakistan Afghanistan Portugal Bantu Ukraine Oman Denmark Canada Australia Republic of South Africa Bysantium Cordoba Caliphate Prussia (or is this considered part of Germany)? etc. etc. etc.

hi ,

if Israel is "irrelevant" , the civ that thought the world a great deal of things , then why do you place a little country on the list that has done next to nothing for mankind like belgium , ........

have a nice day

	24-02-2003 17:42									#386
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , if Israel is "irrelevant" , the civ that thought the world a great deal of things , then why do you place a little country on the list that has done next to nothing for mankind like belgium , ........ have a nice day

ISREAL IS NOT CIV IT IS PLACE AT UNITED SOLDIERS OF AMERICA!

BUT PALESTIINA IS!

FREEDOM AND PEACE CAM IF ARIEL SHARON GO TO WAY

ANYTIME WHEN PALESTINIAN IS KILLLED,ARIEL SHARON IS CAM FROM HATE FROM MUCH...

AND GO OUT,NOW!

	24-02-2003 17:57									#387
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quote: Originally posted by ottok ISREAL IS NOT CIV IT IS PLACE AT UNITED SOLDIERS OF AMERICA! BUT PALESTIINA IS! FREEDOM AND PEACE CAM IF ARIEL SHARON GO TO WAY ANYTIME WHEN PALESTINIAN IS KILLLED,ARIEL SHARON IS CAM FROM HATE FROM MUCH... AND GO OUT,NOW!

hi ,

ottok , before you speak you should learn more about some facts , ....

second ; stay on topic

politics dont fit in this thread , .....

bye

	24-02-2003 18:39									#388
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ottok is restricted.
(this isn't the only on topic thread that he has been posting these kind of messages in)

And while I know there is a fine line in this thread... he easily crossed it. So please stay on topic and do not use this thread for a current events discussion of the Middle East.

	24-02-2003 20:05									#389
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I must disagree with Abdul-Aziz's list of cultures as important and Israel.

Incs - gone, toast. Influence culturally throughout latin America and nowhere else.

Netherlands - Important these days as a seat of governance... that is constantly overlooked.

Belgium - What?

Cuba - I like Cuba a lot more than Israel, but despite their cool culture they've rarely excercized more than a colonized or surviving role.

Poland - Interesting. A good choice.

Golden Horde - Mongols.

Cambodia - I do agree with this one.

Brunei - So, one rich guy. So what?

Siam/Thailand - Alright, but as influential as Israel or Judaism? Come on.

I could go on, endlessly. But let's face it:

Israel is the "spiritual home" of Judaism, the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM. How can Canada or Brunei compete with that?!?

For once I agree with Panag.

	24-02-2003 21:37									#390
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Panag, Yahweh Sabaoth:

Belgium did much, it had big size with colonies (Zaire/Congo) and was one of colonial powers of 19th century.

Brunei - you probably don't know history of it. In fact, Kingdom of Bruinei before British came had conquered much of Indochina and Indonesian isles.

Golden Horde - was later than Mongols and it was already much different

Netherlands - important not only toda, always important. They firstly done the conception that to have better economy you have not to have bigger fields, but instead make them more efficient. Also, they were a big empire and Amsterdam was European trade center for centuries.

As for Israel being the start of Judaism, well ,it is, but it is the only state practicising it actually. So we than could add all the African animist states just because they practicises religions they've created. Islam and Christianity is already very different from Judaism btw.

Ottok, you said the truth.
Bweren, thanks for support :-)