02-10-2002 20:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes The Hebrews have had huge cultural impacts on the world. Islam and Christianity, the 2 biggest religions in the world, both have roots in Judaism.

*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough*

What? I have to remember that actually hebrews aren't christians and looking what is happening in the eastern mediterranean area, not very islmaic too .

Read the last discovers, seems that Jesus where influenced by TWO older religions, one is Judaism (of course), but the other stays more in a secondary plane, and which is it? Is the Aton egyptian monotheist cult.

Read the religious system that is the basis of christianism and islam, and is by far closer to Aton cult than judaism (but but but... The ceremonial system is totally judaic).

	03-10-2002 00:56									#32
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For the about 2000 years Jews didn't live in Israel. Instead, most of them lived in Europe (i think this is the reason why they are mostly "Whites"). Therefore, IMHO i think there shouldn't be an Israel Civ, but every European civ should have a certain percentage of Jewish population.

	03-10-2002 03:32									#33
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thinkingamer,

about Jews being mostly "white", that's pretty much an american an European sterotype. admittitly, that sterotype exists for a good reason, most of the famous Jews people have heard of are from the US or Europe. but a huge percentage of the Jewish world has always lived around the mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel, and the rest of the middle east. you don't hear about them, becasue like the rest of the Arab world they were living in, there has been very little progress scientific, philosophical, or political progress in the last 400 years.

i agree that an Israeli civ isn't the best way to represent the Jews in Civ 3. the personlly, i think the expansion civ should have been called the Jews, but that was voted down, so it was called the Hebrews. and the scientific, cultrual, political , and theological contributions of Jews throughout histroy should not be scoffed at.

	04-10-2002 06:22									#34
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* What? I have to remember that actually hebrews aren't christians and looking what is happening in the eastern mediterranean area, not very islmaic too . Read the last discovers, seems that Jesus where influenced by TWO older religions, one is Judaism (of course), but the other stays more in a secondary plane, and which is it? Is the Aton egyptian monotheist cult. Read the religious system that is the basis of christianism and islam, and is by far closer to Aton cult than judaism (but but but... The ceremonial system is totally judaic).

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all share the same old Testament; in fact all were known in the Ottoman empire as 'people of the book'.
All three religions are closely related, Islam and Christanity being 'spin-offs.'
AFAIK, the arabs had no problem with the jews until they moved back in in the 40's.

	04-10-2002 18:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes I believe it is the Hebrews who first came up with the concept of 'monotheism'.

most of the Jewish religion was borrowed or heavily influenced by what the Israelites were exposed to during their exile in Babylon.

Since most Christians cosider themselves monotheisitic depsite also believing in a trinity of supernatural personalities, it could be argued that hindus are also monotheistic since all their gods are just different aspects or avatars of the parent god. Hinduism predates the Hebrew religion.

	05-10-2002 22:43									#36
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Oh, is that so? I didn't know that, but I think your right, TacticalGrace. But the Hebrews were indeed early with the concept of monotheism.

	06-10-2002 00:23									#37
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You can claim science to be monotheistic too. The search for a single theory of everything from which all other theories flow. The reason for such a belief in a single overarching principal is based on the culture of monotheistic beleifs.

Science still has many of its own reasons to believe in such a unified system though.

	07-10-2002 13:35									#38
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The Palestinian people were not a 'people' until Jewish settlers began arriving in the area known as Palestine during the 1920's-1950's. Technically speaking, along bloodlines, the Palestinian name is a made up name for displaced Arabs, who are Syrian in nature who in turn are mostly displaced due to their nomadic nature. The words "Palestinian People" were not used (or taken seriously when used) until Yasser Arafat came along and caught the eye of our media.

Hence Palestine.

But hey don't take my word for it, look up the history yourself.

	08-10-2002 00:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Solomyr thinkingamer, about Jews being mostly "white", that's pretty much an american an European sterotype. admittitly, that sterotype exists for a good reason, most of the famous Jews people have heard of are from the US or Europe. but a huge percentage of the Jewish world has always lived around the mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel, and the rest of the middle east. you don't hear about them, becasue like the rest of the Arab world they were living in, there has been very little progress scientific, philosophical, or political progress in the last 400 years.

Hmmm... im sorry about the "most of them lived in Europe" part, but weren't Jews also a minority in mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel?

Im not sure, but if that is true then there shouldn't be an Israel Civ, but every European civ AND mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel should have a certain percentage of Jewish population.

	08-10-2002 01:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I definitely support Palestinians having their own state, but I think a condition should be the elimination of terrorist activites.

I dunno isn't that a bit of a catch-22? They bomb cause they want their own state, we will give them if they don't bomb. Somone will have to break the loop if THAT is the case.

quote: For those of you who get confused on the difference between Terrorism and Guerilla Warfare. Guerilla Warfare relates to atttacking enemy military and supplies. Terrorism relates to intentially murdering civilians. Occasionally a guerilla tactic or military operation will kill civillians, the question is whether or not the civillians were the intended target as war is a gruesome and dangerous business. A suicide bomber blowing up a building on a military base is technically guerilla warfare. Driving a bus into a marine barraks is technically guerilla warfare. Blowing up a bus or convenience store is terrorism. Driving tanks into a civillian housing area and tearing it down because one person who used to live near there became a suicide bomber is terrorism.

True, Couldnt agree more about guerilla war and terrorism thing but ever since WW II, military and civilian personnel line has been blurred. It used to be that civilians could be considered as not involved in fighting, but modern thinking is different now. WW II introduced bombing civilian cities as tactics to demoralize, disrupt production and cease support by civilains. Civilians are vital part of warfare. In democratic nations, is for them the military is fighting and even if it is not a democratic country the citizens are the ones who are supporting the army, feeding, clothing and making bullets for them.

quote: Flying a plane into a skyscraper to kill unsuspecting children and infants because you are too cowardly to fight the infants in hand to hand combat is DEFINITELY terroism, and in my opinion terrorists have given up all rights to humanity and civilization, should be shot, and their body left to rot in a gutter somewhere. Our civilization coddles terrorists far too much.

Like I said above, its sick and cruel, but it is fair game. They feel that they are at war with us. It shouldnt have been too dificult to realize our civilians were a target. It has been for a decade and there were attempts. Of course we can invade them like we did... that's fair game too. Whether these things are morally right is kinda hazy. But thats how the modern war game goes...

quote: Anyway, ON TOPIC, as soon as I get the upgrades for my computer I'll finish the David Ben-Gurion leaderhead set for Israel. Someone has requested a Sadam Husein leaderset that I'm thinking of making.

Cool~

	08-10-2002 02:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin You can claim science to be monotheistic too. The search for a single theory of everything from which all other theories flow. The reason for such a belief in a single overarching principal is based on the culture of monotheistic beleifs. Science still has many of its own reasons to believe in such a unified system though.

actually scientists would disagree. As you said science search, religion believes (faith) what is to be true. Religion knows what is true, Science does not know, but are searching to know.

As Hawking puts it, Science can lead to either of three conclusion

1 - Physical law is unified by one universal theroy
2 - Physical law is divided by many theory that encompasses different aspects of universe.
3 - Physical law cannot be defined by science.

Scientists like to BELIEVE option 1 is the case, and they pursue option 1 to be true, So you are right in a sense, but I don't think a muslim would say, "Well there is only one Allah, but there is a case that there maybe many allahs or no allah but buddah"

Also, Science is still not unified yet, The 'perfect wedding' of relativy and quantum mech. does not exist yet. We may find the answers (possibly in string), but for now you could say we are polytheistic

So its still abit different from religion.

	08-10-2002 02:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Cidifer Saying Isreal should have a civ is kind of dumb, but not entirly. 1st of all Palistine wasn't a country when Jewish people came there during and after WWII it was still a British mandate, it's similar to India and Pakistan arguing over Kashmir (ok I think I probably have a bunch of spelling errors) which is why, as usual, the British are to blame. When their empire started crumbling they divided up the old territories in really strang manners rather then finding out what the people living thier wanted and have left conflict in many places tp this day.

Didn't bible talk about palestinians having a grand kingdom before they God decided to chase them away and make rom for his chosen people?

I think US mandated that Israel be established as a nation for jews and bunch of UN jumped in and said 'great idea'. I''m not sure. But US had something to do with it is the only thing I remember.

Sorry for triple posting, but they were replies to different people and the text was rather long anyway.

	08-10-2002 02:37									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Scientists like to BELIEVE option 1 is the case, and they pursue option 1 to be true, So you are right in a sense, but I don't think a muslim would say, "Well there is only one Allah, but there is a case that there maybe many allahs or no allah but buddah" Also, Science is still not unified yet, The 'perfect wedding' of relativy and quantum mech. does not exist yet. We may find the answers (possibly in string), but for now you could say we are polytheistic So its still abit different from religion.

The point remains that most scientists believe that there is probably a single root law that is as yet unknown. And I am saying that that is as much to do with monotheistic culture as it is to do with scientific reasoning.

If we lived in a society where polytheism was more prevalent than monotheism, our science would reflect that, by prefering to believe in option 2.

	08-10-2002 02:41									#44
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Anyway the point I was trying to make was that just as culture affects religion (in that Hebrews were influenced by Babylonians), so too is science affected by culture (in that most scientific discovery in the past 400 yrs has been influenced by Judo-Christian cultures)

	08-10-2002 04:28									#45
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thinkingamer-

no worries about the "mostly white" thing. indeed, the Jews were a minority throuhout histroy every place they lived, exception being anceint and modern israel and Hollywood just kidding

Calc II-

it IS the case that the palestinians want their own state, and WILL have it when they stop bombing. the olso process wasn't the grestest, but it was a hell of a lot better than what they have now. many, many people in the Pro-Israel communities in the US completely sympathis with the palestinians and there hopes and desire for self determination. but there is no way that is going to happen if they want self determination at the price of Israel's safety. Why is Israel the only contry in the world that has to defend its right to exist. no one questions the right of China or Morroco to exist, why does Israel get questioned?

and one last thing. the Bible, well, i'm not sure which we are talking about. Palestine is a Roman bastardization of Phillistine. After the Jews revolted the thrid and final time and Jerusalem was crushed in 70 CE (AD), the romans renamed Judea to Palestine to servre jewish connection with the land. they, like Hilter 2000 years later, have failed

	08-10-2002 04:32									#46
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Sagacious Dolphin,

i'm not really sure what you mean by saying the Jews were influenced during the explusion to babylon? that's not really accurate to my knowledge. did the jewish religion change after the distruction of the Temple and then, during the exile? yes, absolutly, but not necessarily do what they found in babylon. at least not that i have heard.

	08-10-2002 04:57									#47
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Didn't bible talk about palestinians having a grand kingdom before they God decided to chase them away and make rom for his chosen people?

quote: Didn't bible talk about palestinians having a grand kingdom before they God decided to chase them away and make rom for his chosen people?

1st of all I don't know what that had to do with what I said, 2nd of all I really don't want to get into an arguement over what the bible says, and personally I don't read the bible so I don't know too mcuh specifics on it.

	08-10-2002 15:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Solomyr Sagacious Dolphin, i'm not really sure what you mean by saying the Jews were influenced during the explusion to babylon?

I don't know how the effects of exile affected Jewish religion, but I would presume their world view would have been affected by outside influences to some extent.

	09-10-2002 02:17									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The point remains that most scientists believe that there is probably a single root law that is as yet unknown. And I am saying that that is as much to do with monotheistic culture as it is to do with scientific reasoning. If we lived in a society where polytheism was more prevalent than monotheism, our science would reflect that, by prefering to believe in option 2.

Oh I agree, but like I said, you dont see too many muslims say "Well I beleiev in only one allah, but there many be many allahs or no allah but buddha"

With faith its more like a firm thing. A done deal and no questions asked so to speak. but im not really refuting agst ur idea that sci is monotheistic, tho there is still some difference is all im saying.

and solomyr ur absoultely right, I think I was thinking about the phillistine, not the palestine. Wow I suck at mideast history. I'm gonna emabrass myself again tho. Aren't they the same people?

	09-10-2002 02:28									#50
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they are/were the same people for the most part. i am no expert on mideast history, and there has been some serious nomad action in the last 2,000 years, but yeah phillistine is the pre-roman name of palestine. actually, come to think of it, i really can't remember "phillistine" referring to the land. always, the Phillistines or Phillistinians, with the land called Cannan. of course, this is not to say that the land was never called Phillistine, i'm just saying there is a hole in my knowledge.

please control the surprise

	12-10-2002 00:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The point remains that most scientists believe that there is probably a single root law that is as yet unknown. And I am saying that that is as much to do with monotheistic culture as it is to do with scientific reasoning. If we lived in a society where polytheism was more prevalent than monotheism, our science would reflect that, by prefering to believe in option 2.

Actually scientists now believe that there are many universes that each have their own set of rules.
So has science turned polytheistic?

	12-10-2002 01:05									#52
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ribannah, that's just another theory, in which just a few scientists believe. the majority still believes in the theories mentioned in an earlier post

	12-10-2002 05:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Actually scientists now believe that there are many universes that each have their own set of rules. So has science turned polytheistic?

The number of scientists who believe in multi-world interpretations are in the exiguous minority. Most follow the Copenhagen Interpretation which procludes multiverses (or at least makes them irrelative)

	12-10-2002 06:43									#54
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"believe, believe"

The truth appear when you UNDERSTAND, not when you "believe". This discuss is sterile and doesn't match with the topic.

	12-10-2002 16:57									#55
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I don't know about that. I always get the impression that Israel is situated in a different universe .... I don't understand their rules.

	12-10-2002 22:36									#56
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo "believe, believe" The truth appear when you UNDERSTAND, not when you "believe". This discuss is sterile and doesn't match with the topic.

"It doesn't matter what I BELIEVE! I only matters what I can PROVE! So don't tell me what I do or do not know, I know the Law!"
-- A Few Good Men

	13-10-2002 23:25									#57
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So many different topics I forgot what \i was going to post

Right, I had always wondered if there was a connection between Phillistines and Palestinians. Everyone always claims the Palestianians didn't exist b4 Yasser Arafat although it seems a moot point since they certainly exist now. I think its important to make a distinction when speaking about Palestinians and suicide bombings. "They" don't carry out terrorist operations but certain Palestinian organisations do. There is a such thing as a moderate Palestinian, although admittedly less and less in the current political atmosphere. This could be because successive Israeli governments have given Palestinians little reason to trust them leaving the moderates with very weak arguments against the more militant. Settlements obviously being one contentious point where the IDF doesn't even have the will to clear up Jewish outposts that are illegal by Israeli law.
And about this collateral damage, does anyone know if it has defined limits? Perhaps if you kill 1 military target for every 10 civilians you're withing the correct parameters. Or is it just if the operation had a 'legitimate' target, then any amount is ok. Or perhaps simply if it is carried out by a recognised military organisation? Has anyone even bothered to wonder? Was Hiroshima acceptable collateral damage?

	14-10-2002 04:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Was Hiroshima acceptable collateral damage?

Well, In WW2 it was common practice to bomb large cities, on both sides. They wanted the colateral damage, less people making bombs to do the same thing to them. And there wasn't a huge public outcry either. If you have ever played games such as Warcraft or Starcraft, you know that the best way to win is to cripple their infrastructue (peons or SCVs) It's the same way in Civ. What would you do, run five bombers over a city and then attack, or just attack?
Hiroshima was acceptable, it ended the war quickly, saving huge numbers of Japanese and Allied lives that would have been lost in an assault on Japan. It also showed the world the power of nukes, which has in effect prevented anyone from using them. Imagine if we had not nuked Hiroshima, but after the war had war with Russia, and first used nukes there? Mass destruction everywhere.

	14-10-2002 05:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Didn't bible talk about palestinians having a grand kingdom before they God decided to chase them away and make rom for his chosen people?

No you are thinking of the Cannanites, the Hebrew exodus from Egypt brought them to a land of giants (literally it's recorded these people were on average 7 feet tall and some were recorded at 13 feet, hence the David and Goliath story).

The palestinians never existed until the British mandate of Palestine. Basically a made up word. Now it's a household name.

	14-10-2002 05:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Actually scientists now believe that there are many universes that each have their own set of rules. So has science turned polytheistic?

Cathlic, Protestant, baptist....

Now science has its own branches of beliefs