24-09-2002 12:26									#31
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If Bush succeeds with his ultimatum to the UN and gets a SC resolution for his pet war, then Schröder will offer some lukewarm support. Maybe the yanks can use the Fuchs APCs or something like that. Schröder will wiggle through this somehow.

Chris:

"Why Paiktis, are you saying the German government is being muniplative and dishonest?"

Don't know about muniplative, but Schröder is a dishonest shithead.

"US doesn't need to hate some other country to have an election, it's to busy hating each other's party."

Which explains why we always get the "greatest country on earth", "best in the world" and "so much better than everyone else" sermons in US campaigns.

	24-09-2002 13:06									#32
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It turns out that Bush was the only world leader who didn't congratulate Schroder on the victory. Bush is seriously offended.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-425279,00.html

Anyway, the German elections leave a sad impression about democratic procedures. Cheap populism rules! Wouldn't it be better to simply appoint the Chancellor?

	24-09-2002 13:07									#33
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Proof that Bush is a ****.

	24-09-2002 14:02									#34
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He would make me regret to have elected him. But wait... I didn't elect him anyway, nor did I elect Stoiber. But I don't think he will act this way. "Bush has explained me..." would make look him dumb, at least dumber than Bush, and a profi in manipulating media like Schröder will hardly make this mistake.

As for the Greens: They would groan and moan and spit poison, but in the end do all to remain in power. As seen a couple of times, during the bombardement of Yugoslavia as well as the discussion about sending forces to Afghanistan. Even the green core called Fischer a "war criminal", but what was the result of all this crap? The Greens agreed to all, to remain in the government.

It seems, all parties and politicians in Germany are dumbasses. But wait, gotta extend this: All parties and politicians in the World are dumbasses.

	24-09-2002 14:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Which explains why we always get the "greatest country on earth", "best in the world" and "so much better than everyone else" sermons in US campaigns.

Hitler did the same, only with less words. He called the germanic race "Übermenschen", which can be translated "greater, or better people". Wait again , did I just make a comparison that could cause an international conflict?

	24-09-2002 14:18									#36
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You did.

America's sense of superiority is not racist though, rather pseudo-religious.

	24-09-2002 15:28									#37
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The Germans can't just do a U-turn and say they will support the US against Iraq, because it would be illegal. They are not allowed to attack another country or allow their any country to use bases in their territory to attack another country unless there is a (successful) UN vote on the matter. This was a consition of reunification I think.

So I don't see how Schroeder can do anything else...

	24-09-2002 15:34									#38
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Not quite. Germany cannot participate in a war of aggression, but there's whiggle room in that - see the Kosovo war.

To construe a US attack on Iraq without SC authorization as legal under international law is however a stretch too far, unless they can show some evidence (and lies repeated ad nauseam don't count).

	24-09-2002 15:45									#39
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The Germans are pissed off, because if there is any invading of weaker countries for spurious reasons they are the one to do it

	24-09-2002 17:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The Germans are pissed off, because if there is any invading of weaker countries for spurious reasons they are the one to do it

At least when the Germans invaded they attacked peoples with guns to defend themselves with. When the British invaded weak countries they chose peoples whose weapon of choice was sharp pieces of fruit and the occasional spear.

	24-09-2002 17:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin At least when the Germans invaded they attacked peoples with guns to defend themselves with. When the British invaded weak countries they chose peoples whose weapon of choice was sharp pieces of fruit and the occasional spear.

You've been watching too much Blackadder

	24-09-2002 18:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It turns out that Bush was the only world leader who didn't congratulate Schroder on the victory. Bush is seriously offended. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-425279,00.html Anyway, the German elections leave a sad impression about democratic procedures. Cheap populism rules! Wouldn't it be better to simply appoint the Chancellor?

Donald Rumsfeld has refused to meet with the German Defence Minister.

That is so petty its unbelievable. Have a view contrary to the US and they reprehend you. Its all so childish.

	24-09-2002 18:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Donald Rumsfeld has refused to meet with the German Defence Minister. That is so petty its unbelievable. Have a view contrary to the US and they get reprehend you. Its all so childish.

Considering the Germans get very touchy when you mention there Nazi past, I don't see how they can complain when other countires onject to being compared to them

	24-09-2002 18:54									#44
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Falls perfectly in line with the arrogance of this administration. Seems as CEOs of well connected companies and in similar positions ("Think-tanks" - lol) you do not learn to take criticism.

They behave the same way against domestic opposition, but on this they're overplaying their hand. Schröder has made no anti-Bush or anti-american comment in the campaign, neither has Struck, and this "we want Canossa" reaction will backfire in the german public after a short while.

	24-09-2002 19:46									#45
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The damage in the german public is already immense.

The arrogant way the US government reacts to a rhetorical blunder (not even a direct insult) of a completely unimportant and pretty dumb person (there are hardly many outside Germany who have heard the name Däubler-Gmelin before this incident) finally convinces me, that the United States don't really want any allies. They want vassals, yes sayers, and "who's not with us, is against us". So I am not surprised, that more and more people here ask, what we need this alliance for. It's politicians like Schröder, who sermonize again and again about the "unbreakable friendship to the American brothers in arms". The same Schröder is now treated by his so called brothers like an idiot for words he didn't even say himself. He will have a hard job to convince the Germans about the usefulness of any transatlantic pact in the future.

	24-09-2002 20:11									#46
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In the United States there has been a trend in politics towards a more moderate possition on both sides, conseritives and liberls. Also to many polls here in the US indicate that many people hold conseritive stance on some issues and a liberl stance on others. Also during the 2000 election, both Bush and Gore try to appeal to moderate views, since candiates have a better chance of winning if they can get in the other party to vote for them.

	24-09-2002 20:40									#47
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I think we do need this alliance untill we get a coherent european army. (and not just a rapid reaction force).

	24-09-2002 21:13									#48
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How soon can we get rid of Schroeder. What would it take?

	24-09-2002 21:16									#49
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The time when you could influence european elections is faaar gone

	24-09-2002 21:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The arrogant way the US government reacts to a rhetorical blunder (not even a direct insult) of a completely unimportant and pretty dumb person (there are hardly many outside Germany who have heard the name Däubler-Gmelin before this incident)

How would Germany react if John Ashcroft, the American equivilant of Däubler-Gmelin, compared Schroeder's use of cheap populism and tapping of Anti-Americanism to distract the German populace from his faliures to Hitler's attempts to do much the samething?

	24-09-2002 21:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Donald Rumsfeld has refused to meet with the German Defence Minister. That is so petty its unbelievable. Have a view contrary to the US and they reprehend you. Its all so childish.

It's the same mindset that led to the GOP losing control of the Senate. Bush is puppeteered by right-wing hawks who refuse to compromise, and when someone "dares" to disagree with their view, they are instantly labelled an enemy.

As Sir Ralph is pointing out, I think the real damage here is Bush & Co.'s fault, as they are blowing a pretty minor incident out of proportion to engender sympathy at home. The cooling of diplomatic relations over this is absurd, and will only serve to further drive home the impression among Europeans that Bush is an arrogant leader who likes to be dictatorial with his allies. It will only increase anti-American sentiment.

	24-09-2002 21:51									#52
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quote: How soon can we get rid of Schroeder. What would it take?

Come on, you have a big experience in removing evil dictators. And in creating and supporting them. What about firebombing? Or cruise missiles? Vacuum bombs in the Reichstag? Or another "peace keeping mission" without UN mandate? Get rid of Bush, and we'll get rid of Schröder. Deal?

quote: How would Germany react if John Ashcroft, the American equivilant of Däubler-Gmelin, compared Schroeder's use of cheap populism and tapping of Anti-Americanism to distract the German populace from his faliures to Hitler's attempts to do much the samething?

I don't know (and care) what our government would say. Probably gasp and ask for an explanation, but hardly blame Bush in Anti-Germanism and cut all diplomatic connections. Personally I would say the same as about D.G., a rhetorical blunder of a hopelessly dumb person.

	25-09-2002 12:40									#53
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"How would Germany react if John Ashcroft, the American equivilant of Däubler-Gmelin...."

If he loses his position over such a comment that's not even verified yet, no problem.

	25-09-2002 13:02									#54
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Well, Schroeder will put his tail btwn his legs and of course side with the US on this. It will not be the first time he would be braking a campaign promise but then what do you expect from a man that everyting he has ever touched has gone to pieces i.e. his family (what family? this is his 4rth wife), his State (as State governor of Niedersachsen) and now Germany which is slowly falling apart in his hands.

So long...

	25-09-2002 13:03									#55
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quote: Vacuum bombs in the Reichstag?

What's a vacuum bomb?

	25-09-2002 13:06									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I categorically disagree. If Schroeder does an about-face on this, the anti-war German people will be infuriated with the SDP. The Greens can then use the memory of the incident to gain ground with left-leaning voters who oppose the war. They would be able to pick up seats (most at the expense of the SDP, I'm sure), and put them in a more powerful position. And guess what? The SDP would still have to work with them, especially then, to form a majority government.

In the longrun the SDP has an option that the Greens don't, namely selecting a coalition partner from the center rather than the left. The Greens might well end up in a weaker position even if they picked up seats, as they are too far to the left to have much of a choice in coalition partners, and thus would remain out of the government if they won't work with the SDP.

	25-09-2002 13:11									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The time when you could influence european elections is faaar gone

#@@#$$#%%$ Double Post!

	25-09-2002 13:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The time when you could influence european elections is faaar gone

Oooh, just for that Greece gets a military Junta next time!

	25-09-2002 13:43									#59
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quote: What's a vacuum bomb?

Something SF to add yet more irony in an already ironically meant statement? I could have chosen planet blasters instead, but these would have destroyed the US as well.

quote: In the longrun the SDP has an option that the Greens don't, namely selecting a coalition partner from the center rather than the left. The Greens might well end up in a weaker position even if they picked up seats, as they are too far to the left to have much of a choice in coalition partners, and thus would remain out of the government if they won't work with the SDP.

The option you are talking about is the FDP (liberals).

A party, that's dreaming to get 18%, but keeps getting 5-8%. A party, megalomanic enough to call their chieftain "cancellor candidate", although he hasn't the slightest chance ever to get the 35-40% he would need. A party which called itself formerly "party for the higher salaries", till they realized, how incredibly dumb that is. A party which yells to lower taxes, without the slightest idea, how to refinance this. A party, which needs to seek shelter in anti-semitic statements to gain attention, just to vehemently disclaim them later. A party, which has the nerve to state before the election, that they'll go with anyone willing to take them into government. So very reliable.

An alternative?

	25-09-2002 13:45									#60
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Well cut Möllemann out, and 99 % of the FDP idiocy you describe is gone...