24-09-2002 03:05									#31
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Bull-fighting? I don't think that is a proper term.
More like bull killing. Even the field, stop sticking spears into it first, and letting it slowly bleed to death.

Bugs Bunny never fought a bull with spears sticking in it.



Rodeo clowns, believe it or not, are closer to the term bull fighter than a matador is.

Those guys are crazy.

Fez: somedays you make it really hard to stick up for you, I'm not even gonna try on this one.

	24-09-2002 03:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I mean dragging a fish out of water by sticking a hook in its mouthand then letting it suffocate to death is cruel, whether or or not you elect to throw it back afterwards.

you don't let it suffocate, you either club it or cut off its head

and yes, "catch-and-release" is a bit cruel, but I bet that people would stop it if fish could scream.

	24-09-2002 03:16									#33
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Tuberski is right. What the Spanish do is not bullfighting. Rodeo Clowns take on far more risk and the bull is rarely harmed. What the spanish do seems more like sacraficing to me. Too pagan or too cowardly if you ask me.

	24-09-2002 03:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Tuberski is right. What the Spanish do is not bullfighting. Rodeo Clowns take on far more risk and the bull is rarely harmed. What the spanish do seems more like sacraficing to me. Too pagan or too cowardly if you ask me.

You are a very wise man, I especially liked this part:

quote: Tuberski is right.

	24-09-2002 03:38									#35
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Well, when I used to like fishing as youngster, my parents taught me to use a bucket. When I catch the fish, I'll unhook it and put it in a bucket full of water. And when I'm done, I'll throw the small (too small) ones back to water and the bigger ones we used to eat. Quick clubbing on the head will finish it fast.
Unnecessary torture should be leaved out even with fishes. It's not a big job to do it. And as for fishing just for fun and not eating.. I don't know.. sure. But you should use the bucket and not just throw the fish to the dry land.

	24-09-2002 03:45									#36
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Bullfighting is the last remnent of the ancient Roman gladitorial games. As such, I think it is something to be preserved. That said, it could easily be changed so that the bull is neither tortured nor killed. Bullriders, ropers, and rodeo clowns face far more risk from a bull than those stuffed matadors ever do. Take away the javalins and the swords and let the matador face the bull with only a cape.

	24-09-2002 03:48									#37
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The portugueses do bullfigthing without hurting the bull

	24-09-2002 03:55									#38
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So why doesn't Spain adopt the Portugese style?

	24-09-2002 03:59									#39
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Spanish bullfigthing supporting see the portuguese style as a stupid, ligth one

	24-09-2002 04:01									#40
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Look, I am not trying to condescend on anybody... or throw their opinion out... no matter what I said. I am entitled to my opinion.

	24-09-2002 04:26									#41
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Sure, but it would really help (especially for the purposes of debating) if you'd actually justify your opinions from time to time.

	24-09-2002 04:35									#42
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****. My opinion are justified. It is called culture differences.

	24-09-2002 04:38									#43
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That's not sufficient justification by itself, especially when you admit to a double standard.

	24-09-2002 04:41									#44
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Fine let me keep my double standard. I am from a different country and have come to my conclusions that this is a perfectly sound sport. You can say it is not and what the hell am I supposed to say?

	24-09-2002 04:46									#45
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Exactly what is the sport part of it Fez

	24-09-2002 04:48									#46
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PART ONE.

Attention: This is a long post from Kramsib, if you want a little extract go to the last lines, if you want to read all, .... at your own risk

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, ok, so let's criticise a Spanish custom. I am very sad about so much ignorance, but, it doesn't matter, I am not a wise man.

First and foremost, bullfighting is a tradition in Spain, as a good Christian country during centuries, bull-fighting represents the fight between "The Demon", "The beast", this is to say, the bull, and "the Human Being".

Of course, there weren't ecologists in the Middle Ages (Thank God), so everybody agree that was a beautiful spectacle. In the beginning it was reserved only for noblety but they started to become gay, so their servants substituted them.

You guys, you haven't see the art when the bull literally dances with the Bullfighter (I will use Torero from now), this is the dance of death.

Perhaps you see a little animal a pacific bull which has been on the grasslands peacefully, but this is not true. This is a special race of bulls, Lidia Bulls are not like the rest, they are useless to produce meat because of their bad quality (full of nerves and very hard meat) and the low quantity compared with the rest of the bulls (on the other hand, the meat of bullfighted bulls is used to prepare meals, so nothing is wasted).

They are wild animals which has been grown up in the open air only for one aim, "The Bullring". They are aggressive, 300 kilos weigh, killing-machines, that is their instinct, and they are armed with 30 cm. or longer horns as sharp as swords. No, they are not Charity Nuns.

I laughted a lot when some Polish ecologists tried to stop a bullfighting by seating in the middle of the bullring in Poland, and the bull, which doesn't regognise friends from enemies started to beat them. What stupid ones !!!.

Ok, the bull suffers when the sword and the spears hit it, but it is not affraid, it is a brave bull which is waiting for its chance to kill. So forget about the figure of an indefense animal.

To be continued...

	24-09-2002 04:49									#47
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PART TWO

Another reasoning, is economy and ecology. It is a fact that the Lidia bulls race exists due to the existance of bullfighting, if there wasn't bullfighting there wouldn't be Lidia Bulls. That is because bullfighting is a business which make these bulls profitable. Keeping these bulls alive has costs which has been automatically covered thanks to this business, perhaps you guys are interested in protecting these animals by giving your money to maintain them. Let me see how much strength have your words. We are talking about the extinction of a whole bull race and this is serious (if you don't believe me look for what happened to donkeys, wherever).

But I am also against current bullfighting because of the cheating. Bulls are "shaved" ("afeitados"), they get their horns enshorten (and sharpen again to cover the cheat). The aim of this cheat is to prevent bulls from calculating the real distances so they mistake triying to hit the Torero. That is because Toreros are nearly as reach as football players and, as far as this capitalist world is concerned, they are rich so they must live more.

If my memory is ok, no bullfighters have died since Paquirri did in the early 80's.

Anoder annoying point is that like in football, you have to see a lot of bad bullfightings to see a good one (to see the art I talked before).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To sum up.

- If it hurts your sensibility don't look but don't censure us.
- Lidia Bulls are only profitable for bullfighting, if bullfighting is forbidden Lidia Bulls are condemned to extinction and many families and workers to the dull (unemployment).

On the other hand

- Bullfighting is becoming a dirty business full fo cheating and is losing the art which make it beautiful.

	24-09-2002 04:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I am from a different country and have come to my conclusions that this is a perfectly sound sport.

How did you come to these conclusions, though? What thought process did you go through?

	24-09-2002 04:55									#49
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger How did you come to these conclusions, though? What thought process did you go through?

Through my own analysis.

	24-09-2002 04:57									#50
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Kramsib, te contesto en español porque no quiero ofenderte (¡¡eres mi amigo!!), y menos discutir contigo delante de todos estos amables guiris, pero a mi me parece que no esta bien obtener espectaculo del sufrimiento...

	24-09-2002 05:13									#51
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Excuse me, English Speakers but I want to answer my friend in Spanish too.

Eso estaría muy bien que te oyese la Ana Rosa Quintana y todas esas perras de los Reality Show que estrujan el sufrimiento humano en pos de su beneficio (y encima hacen labor social, cuidado) .

Yaros, (tranquilo no estoy cabreado, ni me lo tomo a mal, discrepamos eso es todo) en el caso de los toros de lidia creo que pesa mucho más la posibilidad de la extinción de toda una especie animal. Encuéntrame una actividad que los toros de lidia puedan desarrollar que permita su autogestión y luego hablemos de acabar con las corridas de toros. (En este caso el sufrimiento de los toros hace labor social, mantiene los trabajos de mucha gente).

Perhaps one thing can be true, and everybody can agree, the same for the bulls and the british foxes.

Convince the people first, and then let the whole society to ban or change their customs and traditions, but don't try to forbid them so soon because it creates a lot of conflict.

	24-09-2002 05:15									#52
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Convincing me is like stopping a bullet train with a rope.

	24-09-2002 05:22									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib Excuse me, English Speakers but I want to answer my friend in Spanish too. Eso estaría muy bien que te oyese la Ana Rosa Quintana y todas esas perras de los Reality Show que estrujan el sufrimiento humano en pos de su beneficio (y encima hacen labor social, cuidado) . Yaros, (tranquilo no estoy cabreado, ni me lo tomo a mal, discrepamos eso es todo) en el caso de los toros de lidia creo que pesa mucho más la posibilidad de la extinción de toda una especie animal. Encuéntrame una actividad que los toros de lidia puedan desarrollar que permita su autogestión y luego hablemos de acabar con las corridas de toros. (En este caso el sufrimiento de los toros hace labor social, mantiene los trabajos de mucha gente).

Tus argumentos son que 1) dan trabajo 2) el toro se extinguira si no fuera asi.

1) Bueno, no digo que se prohiba ahora, pero si con el tiempo y con una reconversion ¿crees que eso es obstaculo?

2) Pues ¿Para que estan los zoologicos y las reservas?

	24-09-2002 05:30									#54
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Bueno, Kramsib, me voy a acostar. Te repito que no he pretendido ofenderte, y no te creas que soy un fanatico ni nada por el estilo. Es simplemente, que no lo entiendo. Sera por mis origenes extranjeros

	24-09-2002 05:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Through my own analysis.

Okay, can you please enlighten us with some kind of justification, rather than continuing to make unsubstantiated claims? For example, "through my own analysis" is exceedingly vague. What specific evidence or revelation caused you to draw your conclusions?

	24-09-2002 05:38									#56
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I have drawn up my conclusions from the facts in question. (Meaning I am trying to evade questions here...)

	24-09-2002 05:41									#57
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In other words, you are the holder of yet another unjustified (i.e. worthless) opinion.

	24-09-2002 05:43									#58
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My opinion is not worthless. Just justified by culture. Shall I say more?

	24-09-2002 05:59									#59
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It apparently hasn't occurred to you that the fact that yaroslav, one of your countrymen, disagrees with your opinion renders null and void your already dubious "I'm from a different country so there" justification.

	24-09-2002 06:33									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Fez My opinion is not worthless. Just justified by culture. Shall I say more?

Well, the death penalty is justified by my cultre in the exact same way.....