23-09-2002 21:54									#1
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What is your view on bullfighting as it is practiced, mostly in Spain these days? I think it's a cruel and disgraceful spectacle, and I'm surprised there isn't more effort put into attempting to convince the Spanish they should stop it.

Sure millions of animals are killed everyday around the world, but they're not deliberately made to suffer in the process like in the bullfights and a few other "bloodsports".

A guy who leaves his puppy in the car on a hot summer day - by accident, stupidity - is almost lynched, but it's been a long time since I've seen anyone raise an eyebrow about how the Spanish routinely massacrate bulls for family entertainment. Why is that, do you think?

	23-09-2002 22:08									#2
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No.

'though I'm tempted to yes just so that the people who like that sort of thing can risk being gored and trampled.

	23-09-2002 22:23									#3
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I think it is fine. I don't care what other people from other countries think because they are not from my country. My people have decided to keep this sport.

Also bullfighting is more prevalent in Latin America not Spain.

	23-09-2002 22:25									#4
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i think its a bit uncivilized myself.

what are its origins BTW?

	23-09-2002 22:27									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Fez My people have decided to keep this sport.

"Sport", as in who can make the bull suffer the most before killing it?

That is basically what it's all about, right?

	23-09-2002 22:30									#6
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You are not from my country so you don't know why we keep it... it is part of society. And there is nothing you animal rights activists can do about.

	23-09-2002 22:32									#7
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i think they are opposed to it in spain too... some people at least.

another onewhich is strange is this chase me crapless little bull.

where they unleash the bulls to chase the people.

i'd prefer being chased by riot police than bulls.

	23-09-2002 22:34									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You are not from my country so you don't know why we keep it

And I see you certainly aren't gonna enlighten us.

	23-09-2002 22:34									#9
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hemmingway got "inspired" by it though IIRC

	23-09-2002 22:34									#10
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Very few people in my country as opposed to it.

	23-09-2002 22:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Winston And I see you certainly aren't gonna enlighten us.

I already have. But you will never understand.

	23-09-2002 22:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I think it is fine. I don't care what other people from other countries think because they are not from my country. My people have decided to keep this sport.

Hmm, doesn't seem like a good rationalization to me. "It's okay because my people do it.?" If your people decided gassing Jews would make a good sport, would it be okay?

Or, to be more to the point, what if they decided to take dogs, put them in arena, torture and kill them for fun and sell tickets to the public to watch?

Latin America overall may have more bullfights, but in terms of individual countries, Spain is still the leading nation, as far as I can tell by the limited statistics available on the Web. France and Portugal also have regions that do them as well.

	23-09-2002 22:39									#13
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Boris, these are animals we are talking about not people.

	23-09-2002 22:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Boris, these are animals we are talking about not people.

1) Why does that make it okay to torture and kill an animal for sport?

2) Would you support the above scenario with the dog? How would that be any different than a bull?

Surely you can't be suggesting it is okay to torture and kill an animal for whatever whim one wants?

	23-09-2002 22:44									#15
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in Pablona I think, hemmingway got inspired by this.

it was a famous novel,,,, which one?

	23-09-2002 22:44									#16
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Torture and kill? Typical animal rights rhetoric.

The situation with the dog? No. Fine I use double standards and I don't care.

	23-09-2002 22:48									#17
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someone could dress up as a bull and being chased.

	23-09-2002 23:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Torture and kill? Typical animal rights rhetoric.

How is what I said wrong? Do they not jab the bull repeatedly with spears, and let them stick into it as it bleeds away? Do they not kill it at the end?

Rhetoric or not, it isn't inaccurate. If someone stuck you in an arena and did that, would you not consider it torture?

quote: The situation with the dog? No. Fine I use double standards and I don't care.

Okay, since you admit to being a hypocrite about it, and refuse to enlighted anyone as to why bullfighting isn't a barbaric act of cruelty with rational discussion, then don't blame people for coming to the conclusion that it is an uncivilized bit of animal torture.

	23-09-2002 23:12									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You are not from my country so you don't know why we keep it... it is part of society. And there is nothing you animal rights activists can do about.

Now that is some of the best "enlightening" I've ever seen! Way to explain the history behind it, Fez.

	23-09-2002 23:13									#20
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Boris you are American so you know nothing about my country's society or culture. Your rhetoric is typical of that of the American animals right activist. Rhetoric that should be ignored.

	23-09-2002 23:29									#21
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You dont have to be an animal rights activist to be uncomfortable with the suffering of animals.

	23-09-2002 23:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Boris you are American so you know nothing about my country's society or culture. Your rhetoric is typical of that of the American animals right activist. Rhetoric that should be ignored.

So I guess all I can assume is that you're Spanish, so you know nothing of being civilized.

Seriously, though, it's bs to sit there and condescendingly tell people they don't understand the culture and not try to explain it. All that does is make us see your posts as empty rhetoric used to weakly excuse a practice most people in the world see as barbaric. So either enlighten us or cut the crap and admit you guys just like torturing animals for fun.

	23-09-2002 23:46									#23
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Cmon Boris, youre not actually taking Fez seriously are you?

	24-09-2002 01:57									#24
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I'm Spanish and I'm against bullfigthing. The number of people opposed to that practice grow year after year. Many bullfigthing 'spectacles' now gives for free a tickect if you are under 16, in a desesperate try to gain young people support.

But Bullfigthing is so involve on Tradition that a ban against this is very difficult. People that are against bullfigthing don't go too see it, but don't aks for ban it

	24-09-2002 02:04									#25
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Plain and simple: I oppose bull fighting in all it's forms as it's not good treatment off animals before finally ending their lives. If I would be a bull, I wouldn't want to end my life on a bull fighting venue as it would be quite cruel after all. And yes, I'm a friend of animals. Asking me for attending a such venue wouldn't be so nice, but I wouldn't start ranting because of that. I would just simply say that I don't enjoy bull fighting as entertainment.

	24-09-2002 02:08									#26
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Where does the line get drawn at cruelty to animals for sport. Granted bull-fighting and fox-hunting is cruel, but is fishing? I mean dragging a fish out of water by sticking a hook in its mouthand then letting it suffocate to death is cruel, whether or or not you elect to throw it back afterwards.

How do you define cruelty?

	24-09-2002 02:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The situation with the dog? No. Fine I use double standards and I don't care.

My work here is done, and I didn't even do anything! Fez has once again outdone himself with his well justified and rational arguments.

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Where does the line get drawn at cruelty to animals for sport. Granted bull-fighting and fox-hunting is cruel, but is fishing? I mean dragging a fish out of water by sticking a hook in its mouthand then letting it suffocate to death is cruel, whether or or not you elect to throw it back afterwards.

An argument for the increased cruelty in the treatment of fish and shellfish (hooking fish and letting them suffocate, boiling shellfish alive), and also an argument for pesco-vegetarianism, is that fish and shellfish have primitive nervous systems--they're not capable of registering pain like a dog, or a bull. I dunno if I necessarily buy this argument, but certainly different species have different capabilities of registering pain and thus have different "cruelty tolerances"--an extreme case is bacteria, which nobody (except perhaps for hardcore Jainists) ever considers to have the same rights as other "higher" species.

	24-09-2002 02:43									#28
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Animals don't have rights. Keep on bullfighting, my Latin brothers.

	24-09-2002 02:45									#29
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I don't care if Spaniards continue Bullfighting- heck, the thing that bugs me most is the waste of meat, assuming they don't eat the bull killed (if they do, then I care even less). My main problem with Bullfighting is that it is overly ritualized- more spectacle than anything- its simple in Latin America. Also, make it more interesting by not shaving the bulls horn down- I would not mind seeing a few more bullfighters die as well.... all in the name of sport, of course.

	24-09-2002 02:46									#30
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quote: Also, make it more interesting by not shaving the bulls horn down- I would not mind seeing a few more bullfighters die as well.... all in the name of sport, of course.

I'm totally with you on this.