24-09-2002 07:00									#61
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Loincrap, other people from my country can disagree with my opinion. That is why we have political parties like the PSOE (which I hate) and the PP (which I support).

	24-09-2002 07:24									#62
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I think Fez is actually making me dumber... (sigh)

	24-09-2002 07:28									#63
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I hereby patent a new term.

The Fez Effect

The phenomenon when a previously or potentially rational discussion is sunk by the abject stupidity of a single obtuse poster.

	24-09-2002 08:19									#64
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And here I thought all the time that Giancarlo was making the big point about how he was an American who was going to run for President or some such delusion.

Did he become a Spaniard when he changed names to Fez, or what's the deal?

All the drama gets soooooo confusing when you've been away for a while.

Oh, and bullfighting is a ***** "sport." Small bulls, lots of bullfighters to confuse them, places in the bull ring to duck out of the way.

Get a real, live, serious Grade-A American bullriding bull from the rodeo circuit, and one bullfighter only. No place to hide. Then you can make it a sport.

The bulls I've seen (channel flipping on TV, both in Mexico and Spain) look like they're drugged or something - they sure as hell have limited endurance.

	24-09-2002 19:34									#65
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Yaros, there is no sense in putting Lidia Bulls in Zoos or Reserves, because then they would be financed with money from the government (our money from the taxes), THEY ARE PROFITABLE IN THE BULLRINGS, THEY EVEN PRODUCE SUPERAVIT so WHY???

- Give me another profitable activity for the bulls and then ban bullfighting. (If you think a zoo is profitable, give me proofs ok )

Or:

- Convince everyone about the bad morality of hurting animals so the whole society will ban bullfighting.

Hey Yaros, sigo de buen rollito

	24-09-2002 19:40									#66
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Its Barbaric and saying its your culture is a crap reason to keep something.

It use to be English culture to burn suspecetd witches but we stopped.

	24-09-2002 19:41									#67
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I don't think there is any cruelty against the bull in the bullring because the bull can defend itself. In fact, the bull doesn't seem indefensive (you guys wouldn't have "balls" to put yourselfs in front of such an animal). Of course it is a pitty that some bullfightings have been cheated, that makes me angry .

I think ecologists should focus their efforts on keeping the equilibrium in the nature more than trying to ban ancient traditions.

	24-09-2002 19:43									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib I don't think there is any cruelty against the bull in the bullring because the bull can defend itself. In fact, the bull doesn't seem indefensive (you guys wouldn't have "balls" to put yourselfs in front of such an animal). Of course it is a pitty that some bullfightings have been cheated, that makes me angry . I think ecologists should focus their efforts on keeping the equilibrium in the nature more than trying to ban ancient traditions.

Oh yeah sticking spears in an animal isn't cruel.
WTF has being brave/stupid enough to go into a ring with a bull got to do with this

	24-09-2002 19:44									#69
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Its Barbaric and saying its your culture is a crap reason to keep something. It use to be English culture to burn suspecetd witches but we stopped.

Of course you stopped, when there were no witches left to burn

But that is not an English tradition only, whole Europe had fun burning witches.

What do you think about the case of English foxes? I think you had an interesting riot about it these days?.

	24-09-2002 19:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Oh yeah sticking spears in an animal isn't cruel.

Think about it as a funny pearcing for a bull. . Oh, don't be silly, there is much more cruelty in those old women dressing and "hairing" their ridiculous dogs

I have never seen a bull shouting, or crying because of the spears, even when they are being sticked with the big one (The pike) the bull push with more strength against The Pikemen ("El Picador").

	24-09-2002 19:53									#71
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Comparing the hooks of the spears with the whole bull is to compare the sticking of a "mosquito".

	24-09-2002 19:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger WTF has being brave/stupid enough to go into a ring with a bull got to do with this

Of course, you , who don't know anything about bulls is a stupidity to go into a ring with a bull. Whereas it is bravery for a Torero. Olé, olé.

You guys seem to be unable to see the art of bullfighting, the same happens to surrealist pictures, those who don't understand anything cannot say if it is art or a ****.

	24-09-2002 20:32									#73
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1) Breeding an animal for the sole use of killing it in a bullring is probably even more repugnant than just capturing one and killing it. It is morally unethical. If this breed of bull is not needed for any other use, then it can be allowed to naturally die out by stopping bull fights and letting the remaining animals live out their days in capitivity until they die.

2) Saying it isn't cruel or tortuous because you can't see bull tears is ludicrous. Comparing being speared to mosquito bites is also silly, as we can clearly see the bull bleeding. It's response to the cruelty is to fight back at those attacking it, which is certainly natural.

3) The bull is relatively defenseless compared to the bullfighters. The bull is alone in a ring surrounded by thousands of people with no egress. The bullfighters can run away whenver they want. They then gang up on the bull, first stabbing at it and weakening it, until the Torero shows up to put on his fancy show (at which point the bull is weakened enough that it's really not all that much of a challenge). Then they kill the thing.

I guarantee you that if we put you in the bull's place, you'd consider it torture, both physical and psychological.

I don't see much sport in it, as the odds against the bull are pretty much 10,000:1. It's just an organized spectacle of cruelty, only marginally better than the Romans feeding Christians to the lions.

	24-09-2002 20:36									#74
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they should ban it right away. whaling is banned for christs sake!

	24-09-2002 22:11									#75
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At least a good reasoning from Boris godunov.

What is moral? Too complicated philosophic discussion about morality, even morality has changed through ages.

What about those cows which spent all their lives being breed to die for giving us meat living in a tiny room? CLAUSTROPHOBIC TORTURE, What about those hens which have their "turns" alterated to produce more eggs? METHABOLIST MANIPULATION

(note: many farmers use artificial lights to substitute the light of the sun so they can manipulate the natural metabolism of the hens which is regulated by the day-night cycles, they turn on the light twice a day to duplicate the production, I hope you understand my poor explanation).

Human beings make terrible things against animals to keep our lifestyles "shitting" on moral values. Don't make me laugh !.

The aim of "Banderillas" is to "tease" the bull, their hooks are only to fix on the top of the bull. The pike is to make the bull bleed and rest energy to the bull.

These are the real facts, you think they are cruel. Well, I know, I think they are unnecesary, I prefer the lonely fight between the bull and the Torero. The pike is painfull but I think the bull doesn't feel the Banderillas no more than the time when they are stuck. It is a big and a strong animal, remember that.

But the definitive reasoning is, if there is no bullfighting the specie Lidia Bull will dissapear irremediably.

I repeat, if you don't believe me look for what happened to the donkeys everywhere.

What is more cruel, the killing of some animals or the dissapearing of the whole specie?

And then who would be the worst murderers?

	24-09-2002 22:44									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib At least a good reasoning from Boris godunov.

Why thank you.

quote: What is moral? Too complicated philosophic discussion about morality, even morality has changed through ages.

While there is a limit to moral relativism, in this instance, all we have to do is point out what is current, common morality. And in the vast majority of the Western world, torturing animals for sport is considered immoral.

quote: What about those cows which spent all their lives being breed to die for giving us meat living in a tiny room? CLAUSTROPHOBIC TORTURE, What about those hens which have their "turns" alterated to produce more eggs? METHABOLIST MANIPULATION

I'm vegetarian, so you won't get an argument from me here.

quote: Human beings make terrible things against animals to keep our lifestyles "shitting" on moral values. Don't make me laugh !.

This is a basic logical fallacy. The commission of atrocities by one party doesn't excuse the commission of said atrocities. At any rate, it is perfectly possible to keep domesticated livestock in healthy, peaceful conditions free from suffering (organic, free-range meat is becoming increasingly popular). Nonetheless, what other people do to animals has no bearing on whether or not bullfighting is animal cruelty or not.

quote: The aim of "Banderillas" is to "tease" the bull, their hooks are only to fix on the top of the bull. The pike is to make the bull bleed and rest energy to the bull.

Exactly. They torture the bull both mentaliy and physically, "teasing" it (when it is likely scared out of its wits anyway), and then stabbing it and making bleed until it is weak. How humane.

quote: These are the real facts, you think they are cruel. Well, I know, I think they are unnecesary, I prefer the lonely fight between the bull and the Torero. The pike is painfull but I think the bull doesn't feel the Banderillas no more than the time when they are stuck. It is a big and a strong animal, remember that.

That in no way indicated it doesn't feel pain, just because it is big and strong. If I stuck a knife into Dolph Lungren's shoulder, I bet it would hurt him just as much as it would Richard Simmons.

quote: But the definitive reasoning is, if there is no bullfighting the specie Lidia Bull will dissapear irremediably. I repeat, if you don't believe me look for what happened to the donkeys everywhere. What is more cruel, the killing of some animals or the dissapearing of the whole specie? And then who would be the worst murderers?

I already answered this. You yourself claim these bulls are bred solely for the sport of bullfighting, it is the purpose of their existence. Yes, it would be far better to let the species die out entirely than to continue to breed them for slaughter like this. Extinction is a fact of nature, 1000s of species of plants and animals become extinct every year, most through no fault of human beings. If the bulls serve no more function to nature, and humans can't domesticate them for other, productive uses, then just let nature take its course, and when the last one dies, it dies. There is no cruelty or murder involved there, just natural selection.

So yes, the worse murderers would still be the Toreros.

	24-09-2002 22:45									#77
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cruel to animals?

where is the option it is cruel to humans?

	24-09-2002 22:51									#78
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What about Portugese (French ?) bullfighting?

	24-09-2002 22:57									#79
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gain, spanish bull-fighters are not very sporting- you Kramsib said it yourself. It ruins the spectacle. besides, if as Yaroslav says, there are non-violent bul-fighting methods, then the Lidia bull need not go exteinct, though Boris made some very good points on that.

If those capitalis want to make more money, they should take the best buls, put armor on them, sharp swords at the end of their horns, and [pinn them against 'xtreme matadors', or stupid, reality TV contestants, and sell the product to low-brow television stations ( I would recommend FOX in the US).

O, y porque piensan ustedes dos que son los uniquos que hablan espanol? [damn it, I can never get the right symbols in: how does one add a tilde, or an e(n+~)e?)

	24-09-2002 23:00									#80
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Or we can get bulls with some frickin' laser beams on their heads!

	24-09-2002 23:01									#81
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None of Kramsib's arguments give any justification for the torture and slaughter of bulls for entertainment. If the Portugese can have bullfights that don't do this, why can't the Spanish?

	24-09-2002 23:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara None of Kramsib's arguments give any justification for the torture and slaughter of bulls for entertainment. If the Portugese can have bullfights that don't do this, why can't the Spanish?

Yes, you and GePap raise a good point...if they could have non-lethal bull fighting, then the extinction of the Lydian bull (which kramsib says is the most crucial issue) would be a moot point.

If, however, the Spanish are adamantly opposed to this cahnge, that indicates they are more interested in the bloodthirstiness of the "sport" than any real cultural tradition, doesn't it?

	24-09-2002 23:10									#83
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I wonder if we could bring non-lethal bullfighting to the US?



Oh wait, it's called a rodeo.

	25-09-2002 12:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib Of course you stopped, when there were no witches left to burn But that is not an English tradition only, whole Europe had fun burning witches. What do you think about the case of English foxes? I think you had an interesting riot about it these days?.

I don't agree with fox hunting, nor do the majority of people who live in the UK

	25-09-2002 14:53									#85
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Portuguese bullfighting is gay. They have lost the symbolism of such a tradition, as I said, bullfighting represents the fight between the "evil" against the "humans", so the demon should die, that is the symbol. Avoiding killing the bull has no sense, it is a tragic fight and one of them has to die (the Torero or the bull, one of them). That is the tradition.

You guys show me the flag of morality to ban bullfighting, and I said you, the world today "shits" on your morality values.

The extinction of Lidia Bulls will not be a fact of natural selection, anyway, in fact, nearly all the species which are in danger of extinction aren't because of natural selection but they are because of the man's hand. I see you don't care if they extinct, you are cruel guys, you are murderers, worst than murderers, because you prefer see die all the race more than change your minds, you are insane men. You said, "if they are not strong enough to survive then let them die", that is real cruelty men. It is hilarious, your animal defending ends in killing an entire race,

Relooking at bullfighting, you can be another symbolism, the death of nature because of the humans.

Now without masks, ... (not really but only a little bit), I don't care if bullfights continue or not, the world today stinks and the world of bullfighting too, if you want to ban bullfighting, I gave you the reasonings, it is cheat, it is a dirty business, there is a dark side of money and cheat behind the scene.

But I am proud of my mind, I can defend or attack bullfighting because I know things about it, I know the beautiful side, the art, the ancient tradition, the vocabulary (do you know what " The Cossio " is? a great diccionary full of expressions which has enriched my language), and the dark side, the cheats, the dirty business, ... I can see further friends, but you gays have decided to criticise us whithout knowledge. And I only hope that you have learned something more about bullfighting (at least something more than hate me)


No dudo de que otras personas hablen español, sólo que no es muy común y a veces, como en el caso de Yaros, cuando no hay manera de expresarse en Inglés y ya que me quería decir algo a mí personalmente pues usó el español, eso es todo, no tienes porque sentirte ofendido.

Another question, How many bullfights have you seen guys?

	25-09-2002 14:57									#86
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I haven't seen a murder doesn't mean i can't say its wrong

	25-09-2002 15:12									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Look, I am not trying to condescend on anybody... or throw their opinion out... no matter what I said. I am entitled to my opinion.

Yes you are entitled to your oppinion. Your inability to justify bullfighting however is why I bothered to vote on this thread. Surely there must be something you could have said to support this apparently barbarous ritual. Its not a sport. Its not hunting even if the dead bull is eaten. Its just plain cruelty that seems to be a decendent of pagan fertility rights.

It wouldn't be so bad if the matador's attempt to cleanly kill the bull was all that was going on. Its the picadors and those javalins that make it such a needlessly cruel ritual.

	25-09-2002 15:14									#88
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The bull doesn't even get to live if it kills the bullfighter

	25-09-2002 17:14									#89
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Kramsib is almost as good at deluding himself as Fez is.

Stoping Bullfights is cruel and damaging to the enviroment, indeed. You're right, it's the people who want to stop bullfighting that's actually killing and torturing the animal - Afterall, leting a species of animal which is bred for torture and death die off is a cruel and murderous thing to do.


I love your use of the word 'gay', too.

	25-09-2002 17:24									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don't care if Spaniards continue Bullfighting- heck, the thing that bugs me most is the waste of meat, assuming they don't eat the bull killed (if they do, then I care even less). My main problem with Bullfighting is that it is overly ritualized- more spectacle than anything- its simple in Latin America. Also, make it more interesting by not shaving the bulls horn down- I would not mind seeing a few more bullfighters die as well.... all in the name of sport, of course.

This sums up my feelings pretty well.