24-09-2002 00:56									#1
	Expansionistic trait should be dropped, it's a wasted trait Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I hate that useless trait. They should get rid of it altogether. It is a wasted trait.

It saddens me that the mongols are gonna be saddled with a wasted trait. They were my favorite civ in civ2.

They should drop expansionistic and give every civ a choice of 2 out of 3 possible traits. That way you could play some cool civs without having to be weakened by a useless trait.

It has kept me from playing some neat civs that should be enjoyable just because they are saddled with a useless trait. (Russians for instance).

Like russia could start with 3 possible traits "Militaristic, scientific, expansionist". You pick 2 of the three before you start the game.

Better yet Expansionistic should be replaced with a more uselful trait.

	24-09-2002 01:00									#2
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Some are gonna say "Hey! It's fun on a Huge or Giga map!"

My response is..if you have to play a giga map to make a trait useful then that trait is badly broken to begin with.

	24-09-2002 01:26									#3
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Expansionistic civs suck so hard because the usefullness of one of their traits is intrinsically linked to the size and geography of the map played on. On maps that are small and/or filled with islands expansionistic is essentially worthless. So you pop a goody hut one turn earlier and get a settler instead of some gold. If you're on an island that settler probably isn't going to do much good, anyway.

Anyone who plays an expansionistic civ in multiplayer--especially on an island or archipelago map--can and will be targeted for extermination by the obviously more experienced players. The expasionistic civs will be clubbed like dewey-eyed, downy-furred baby Harp Seals. The only difference is, the Harp Seal can crawl away...

Possible solutions to improving the expansionistic trait (I don't pretend to be the first person to think or post these, so please, no accusations of plagiarism):

--Bonus to population growth. Decrease the amount of food needed to produce a new citizen by a fourth or even a third for expansonistic civs.
--Make the scout stronger (of course, anyone can do this with the editor). Give it an attack of one, or even boost its movement to three.
--Somehow give the cities of expansionistic civs additional "bonus" squares in their radii. This would allow them quicker and easier access to luxury/strategic resources. It probably would be overly powerful later in the game, but if you coupled this with the lame scout and goody hut bonuses they currently possess the expansionistic civs would probably still just be breaking even.

	24-09-2002 01:59									#4
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I humbly disagree.

The thing that's interesting is that the guys at Firaxis and the beta testers swear that it is the absolute best trait in multiplay.

I have to agree with them. Early knowledge is very, very important in multiplay (and important in SP). Have you considered that you haven't learned how to use expansionistic yet? I think it a toss up between industrious for the best trait. Yes, very rarely, I've gotten a map where the bonus was minimal. No, I don't usually play Pangaeas.

	24-09-2002 02:07									#5
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Forgive me for disagreeing, but I think that the Expansionist trait can be very useful if in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Reconnaissance is very important, especially in the beginning of the game and even more especially in multiplayer. What the scout unit allows you is access to knowledge of land, resources, luxuries, and your enemies’ location before anyone else. Considering that a majority of multiplayer Civ3 games are going to be played on the smaller maps, knowledge and subsequent access to the very limited resources is going to be key. The non-negative Goodie Huts are a decent bonus as well.

Is the Expansionist trait the most powerful? Not really. That title belongs to either Militaristic or Religious. Is Expansionistic the least useful? Not at all. IMHO, that belongs to Scientific. Don’t get me wrong, the trait could certainly do with some boosting, but with the correct application and skill, Expansionistic can be a very powerful tool. I’d much rather be a crack shot with a pistol than a new recruit with a bazooka.

	24-09-2002 02:11									#6
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renconaissance? i play expansionist and use scouts to uncover goody huts in many games i discover all ancient techs just by scouting

	24-09-2002 02:47									#7
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Yes, reconnaissance. Discovering where your opponant's cities are located, how many he has, how far he is, how advanced are his troops, things like that. If I can find out where he is long before he discovers the same about me, then I hold a significant advantage. The scout can help me achieve that.

	24-09-2002 04:14									#8
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no yes i just dont use it primarily for reconaissance. to the people in the forum: i, almost ALWAYS use expansionistic. my strategy in civ2 was the same strategy the AI is using in civ3, settler diahrea and exploration. my game playing has been upset now that the AI uses my strategy.

anyway in civ3 i use it mainly to see what direction i should start building cities in (makes my expansion and gameplay more efficient) and getting goody huts

	24-09-2002 04:21									#9
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I imagine that PtW is (at least for the first few months) is going to be played a bit differently.

	24-09-2002 04:38									#10
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I totally disagree that expansionist trait should be eliminated.

already been stated but here's my reasons

1. great goody huts- can get all the ancient techs for free! can sell basic techs to get off quickly. maybe strike gold on that first hut and get another settler. Don't have to worry about popping a hut with a settler/worker/city.

2. learn location of enemies quickly

3. learn location of luxuries quickly, send settler to claim

4. more explored, world map is more valuable

I play giga maps, pangea, so they are even more useful.

a strong early start usually wins the game, and I find that if I can build a 3-4 tech lead early, I can sustain my drives a lot longer.

Each trait is useful, if you know how to use it effectively.

	24-09-2002 05:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Artifex Some are gonna say "Hey! It's fun on a Huge or Giga map!" My response is..if you have to play a giga map to make a trait useful then that trait is badly broken to begin with.

I find it to be useful on standard maps.

I don't find any traits to be useful on tiny maps, if that is your point. Scientific? I don't find this useful on any map size. Industrious? Theres not much territory to work on. etc. etc. I find your reasoning to be unfounded.

	24-09-2002 05:43									#12
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i added a second wheeled settler unit with 2 moves for expansionist civs (costs 50 shilds, as compared to 30).

havent seen the AI use it too often though

	24-09-2002 05:49									#13
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Expansionistic is one of my favorite, because, as stated, you get many of the ancient techs for free.
In the beggining of the game, set your slider to 0 and just watch the cashand techs roll in!

	24-09-2002 06:46									#14
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Firaxis is probably just defending a poor decision. In multiplay, I'll bet we'll see that the expansionist trait does indeed suck.

	24-09-2002 06:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Slax Firaxis is probably just defending a poor decision. In multiplay, I'll bet we'll see that the expansionist trait does indeed suck.

I wouldn't bet on it, think on this:

Imagine getting Iron working or, Horseback riding, getting the first Uber units in your first couple of turns, or early settlers, even gold helps, however non expansionist players will pop barbarians at times.

Getting swordsmen in just a couple of turns would be a HUGE advantage.

	24-09-2002 07:11									#16
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...or even discovering where your base is when you don't have a clue where mine is...first strike time!!!

	24-09-2002 07:13									#17
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I think those players who complain haven't really tried expansionistic civs. (Yes, Barry, I admit it. I've gone 180 on this, I think they are good now, even the English)

	24-09-2002 07:48									#18
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Another advantage is the possibility of discovering writing early on.
This means embassies, and military alliances, and early MA's would also be a huge advantage.

	24-09-2002 13:34									#19
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Expansionist Civs are gonna have a BIG advantage in multi-player games.
In that environment knowledge is the key to victory ... you have to know where your opponents King (for a regicide game) or city (for Elimination) is before they know where yours is otherwise you'll be fighting blind.
In standard games who know that the other humans will almost never sell you their world maps, nor will they let you get more than one square inside their borders ... it is vital that you explore the map yourselves - if you don't know where everything is (cities, luxuries, resources) then you will miss out ... scouts will be great for this.

Of course ... the Civ with an even BIGGER advantage will be the Aztecs (beware Vel's green menace!) ), since their Jaguar Warriors are more-or-less scouts anyway and they have two other excellent traits.

	24-09-2002 21:38									#20
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Expansionistic civilizations often get extra settlers, cities, alot of tech and money in the early part of the game.

In addition to easily being able to explore for city sites and other civilizations in the early game so setting up contacts to swap technology.


I think expansionistic is on average capable of bringing your civilization at least 6 technologies, several hundred gold in addition to early contacts and being able to spot quickly optimum city sites I think it is of tremendous worth.


There will be times that expansionistic will not be worth having -if you are stuck on a small continent- but the reverse being if you are on a large continent is worth it.

A final positive is that GA are easy to obtain as building the Great Lighthouse gives expansionistic civs a golden age (well, certainly it does for the English every time in my experience.)

	24-09-2002 22:16									#21
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Expansionists should get a cheap coast-only ship, so that they can use the trait also when they start on an island.

	24-09-2002 22:19									#22
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For all that say exspansionistic gives great tech..I always get the great library as I rate it as invaluable on emperor and diety level I play at.

This further diminishes expansionistic. The only thing youcan say it is good for is exploration but the value of exploration is way overstated. You can get resoruces by exploring with regular units. I agree that scientific sucks hard too. I feel Militaristic is by far the most powerful trait, it just OWNS by FAR. Then Religious and Industrius.

Commercial follows, then scientific, then expansionist (all 3 need to be beefed up to come up to par with the top 3). I dislike all 3, but hate expansionist with a passion.. since I make it an absolute priority to get Great Library and get all ancient techs free anyway, then I have industrius and militaristic ta boot..or religious depending on my mood.

	24-09-2002 22:37									#23
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Artifex, how are you going to get the Great Library in MP when I'm expansionistic and find the techs to research it first?

	24-09-2002 22:59									#24
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and when he can see the city that you're building it in?

	24-09-2002 23:01									#25
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personally, i'm not fond of the expansionist trait, but i usually play as the aztecs (the warrior has to moves, same effect, and it can defend).

but in MP i'm definately treating scouts in my territory as an act of war.

	24-09-2002 23:20									#26
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Aztecs are more or less expansionistic in my book, they get a fast cheap unit that they can scout with from the beginning.

UberKrux, you won't be alone in treating scouts as enemies.

	24-09-2002 23:31									#27
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You think PTW games are gonna be long and drawn out? I wonder how the simultaneous moves will help this, if at all.

	24-09-2002 23:45									#28
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I think it can be a lot faster if you want it to be. It depends on a lot of things. Simultaneous (and Turnless) will speed things up. So will time limits on turns. Setting a time, point, or turn limit for the entire game can bound it. Certain game modes will be faster than the standard. For example, Regicide and Elimination can be very fast for the loser (in Regicide if you lose your king you are out, in Elimination if you lose any city you are out). In general, I'd say PTW games will be faster paced than standard civ, unless you do traditional turn-based with unlimited time on turns.

In addition, some players will be much more aggressive than the AI players are. I'd watch those first few cities (especially if you are non-expansionistic )

	24-09-2002 23:57									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree that the Expansionist trait will be invaluable in MP games, especially since there won't be a slew of AI getting research breaks. The Expansionist civs will have it much easier gaining an early tech lead, finding resources, etc.

But I DO NOT agree that it is very useful in SP games. I mean c'mon, how many of you are going to tell me that you don't reveal at least SOME of the map in the beginning to see if you have a decent starting location, then reload if you don't? If you don't do this, congratulations on wasting your own time after getting stuck in tundra. SP and MP are two different animals...Expansionist is gonna be AWESOME for MP, and it truly truly SUX for SP.

	25-09-2002 00:02									#30
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Sorry, I play my games out till it is clear that it's totally hopeless (I've won a few tundra starts) and count it as a loss by retiring. This isn't ever in the first few turns.