27-09-2002 09:04									#1
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Ok, I am all for moderate political correctness in social dialogue and interaction among people.

In business, just as you would not call a 30-year old male secretary a boy, you should not call a 30-year old female secretary a girl. For instance, a lawyer referring to his female secretary in this manner: "My girl usually handles my correspondence."

And just because a number of blacks use the word "n*gger" among themselves does not entitle whites to use the same word. Many blacks understand the different contexts of its use more readily than whites, when those blacks use it among themselves.

With all occupation titles, what is wrong with using gender-neutral versions:

chairperson -- not chairman
firefighter -- not fireman
police officer -- not policeman
supervisor -- not foreman

and so forth. Even when we know the person's gender, it will be more simple, and less offensive to use the gender-neutral occupation title.



Having stated my opinions on political correctness, I have a question for those who complain about political correctness.

What do you see so terrible or wrong with trying not to offend groups of people?
If it offends people -- don't use the word. How terrible is that?

	27-09-2002 09:10									#2
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Oh if it were only that simple.

Its like the case of the teacher using the word niggardly and getting fired. Its not a matter of be offensive, political correctness is a way the newly empowered take revenge on the dastardly white anglo saxon protestant (males). Sad but true.

	27-09-2002 09:15									#3
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Oh if it were only that simple. Its like the case of the teacher using the word niggardly and getting fired. Its not a matter of be offensive, political correctness is a way the newly empowered take revenge on the dastardly white anglo saxon protestant (males). Sad but true.

Damn -- and I was hoping for more intelligent opinions rather than conspiracy theories.

	27-09-2002 09:19									#4
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Actually he's more right than wrong, Mr. Fun.

And the main problem with PC is that it ends up being thought control. You talk about slavery in a way that isn't consistant with accepted norms, then you are a racist. If you critisize Israel, then you are an anti-semite. THAT is the problem with political correctness.

	27-09-2002 09:20									#5
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no. Absolutely not. "Nigger" is a horrible word and should not be said by ANYONE...you cannot say that blacks can say it and whites cannot. It's absurd...I dont' care what kind of connotation it has.

You want to abolish hatred than you stop using that which breeds hatred...

that crap about making the word lose its power is fine, as long as you let EVERYONE use it. I'm sick of that argument

	27-09-2002 09:22									#6
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Good point Imran

There is a MAJOR difference between being Anti-Israel and anti-semitic.

Hell I'm Anti-America, but that doesn't mean I hate Americans

	27-09-2002 09:30									#7
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The so-called "gender neutral" titles are annoying simply because they are making an issue of such a minor thing. So they are called Firemen, big deal? Is it really so important that you have to raise a stink about it? What's next, Widow-person?
There are very legitimate cases for political-correctness, such as not offending certain groups of people, as Mr. Fun mentioned.
That said though, most politcal correctness is unnescarry, and tends to be about as annoying as some of the silly censor rules on this site.

	27-09-2002 09:32									#8
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The way I see it (and I will say right now that I am generally supportive of political correctness) is that the danger of PC taken to extremes is that it becomes victim-defined.

In a nightmare scenario, this can then lead to action taken against somebody for a slur that they did not intend.

Of course, the n-word and other racial slurs are fairly well-known. They have been used in their day and society has now passed on from this usage, acknowledging that the collective cultural meaning behind such words has effectively negated any return to a neutral tone. Thus, when a kindly old Victorian British lady who was my guardian through seven years uses the term "Chinkery" to describe Chinese crafts, I will tell her that the term could be construed as racially offensive. I know she didn't mean it that way (she's very open minded, but a bit behind times), and I view it as heading off future difficulties to let her know.

Orange - I think you might be referring to an incident where an aide to the Mayor of Washington DC used the word "niggardly" correctly (to mean, well, mean and tightfisted) and had to resign. I haven't heard of a teacher getting into the argument.


Back to the subject, I think it's similar to the American Indians' protest against football teams using Native American mascots. When I first heard of this, my reaction was "is that such a big problem?" ranging towards "get over it". However, since talking with members of the Native American community, I have come to understand that it is a very weighty concern for many people, and that their cultural sensitivities are being overlooked (especially poignant because of their sad history).

Each time now that I get a gut reaction of "oh, come on", I stop myself and try to look at how I would feel in their shoes. A good example is to take the mascot in question and substitute a different racial group and see if it rings racist then. "The Washington Darkies" would be quite obviously offensive if viewed in this light.

	27-09-2002 09:34									#9
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But the 'Washington Whities' wouldn't .

	27-09-2002 09:36									#10
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Ali - said nothing of 'niggardly'...but I know what you're referring to.

I didn't realize that 'gypped' is a slur against Gypsies until recently when I was yelled at for using it (not even talking about Gypsies...) so I know how that feels...

I've debated the n-word issue with myself for a long time, and my stance has been unwavering. If one side of the table is going to use it, they should accept it when others use it. If they don't want it used, they should lead by example

	27-09-2002 09:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider The so-called "gender neutral" titles are annoying simply because they are making an issue of such a minor thing. So they are called Firemen, big deal? Is it really so important that you have to raise a stink about it? What's next, Widow-person?

The gender specific terms were of very real concern to my mother and her sister who faced many hurdles in their professional lives.

It used to matter more, not so much now, but then again I haven't said []man for a long time.

	27-09-2002 09:39									#12
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There have been excesses in the name of PC, sure. There are excesses in all cases -- in a typical transcript of a Cato Institute or Young Republican statement there are practically as many inane generalizations and simplifications as there are words.

It is the fixation of right wingers on alleged PC'isms that is amazing. If you don't like using "B.C.E." or "African-American" or "Ms," fine. You'll sink or swim according to your audience's preferences.

BUT to get on my case if I use those terms is a pathetic attempt at bullying. Granted, right wingers have not been accustomed to *any* limits on their excessive moralizing and posturing, but if you're ever going to play in the big leagues you're going to have to accept that others will refer to themselves how they wish, and not how your bitter little ideology dictates.

	27-09-2002 09:40									#13
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Oh, this is so gay






I really hate that

	27-09-2002 09:42									#14
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I agree Fab. That one really grates on my nerves too. It is sad that so many silly teenagers throw it around with reckless abandon though.

	27-09-2002 09:42									#15
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What's politically correct about saying BCE rather than BC? The whole calendar (as in the before and after) is based on the life and death (roughly) of Jesus Christ, or of when the Church says Jesus lived for those alternative historians. Therefore, I do not find saying BC or AD politically incorrect, nor will I change it.

	27-09-2002 09:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Therefore, I do not find saying BC or AD politically incorrect, nor will I change it.

You speak much sense this evening Fab.

	27-09-2002 09:47									#17
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I think it offends non christians who care.

They do not want to live in a 'year of our Lord'. I don't think they mind using the christinisation of the Empire as a marker, they just would like to remove the overt christian labels.

	27-09-2002 09:52									#18
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My biggest problem with focusing on words is that it takes focus away from real problems, like income disparity or patronizing behavior or outright discrimination. Words don't cause problem, they reflect problems. Changing the words only does nothing to change underlying power structures, and with insults only creates a new set of pajoritives (metally challenged is now an insult, when it was trying to get away from the negative conitations of retarded).

In other ways, like reclaiming lost history, political correctness does a good service, as long as it doesn't go to the opposite extreme (which does rarely happen) and goes from, for example, euro-centrism to afrocentrism. Neither is correct, and the vast majority of pc'ism is about reclaiming what was lost, not denying the contributions of straight white men.

	27-09-2002 09:57									#19
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Its really amazing how things change. Many of the folks here being much younger than I would think themselves on an alien planet if they could go back in history. I grew up in the South in the sixties and things were different.

Everyone smoked and wore white shirts (men) or skirts (women). Everyone referred to blacks as niggers, even in their face and I never heard a complaint till about '69. Most folks went to church and if you didn't you were considered "bad". We did a-bomb drills in classrooms (you got under your desks). No one locked their doors and tv was black and white. Many of the roads were dirt even in the city limits. There were no Mexicans, Arabs, and only rumors of Asians.

I grew up cruising the main drag. Everyone had a beer in their hand while we were driving. If the cops rode by they would stare at you till you dropped the beer out of sight and then tell you to take it easy.

Everyone spanked their children. There were no day care centers but every other "housewife" kept kids during the day. The rest had beauty shops built on their houses.

There were no fast food restaurants. Then maybe McDonalds or Hardees came to town. Seemed that everyone was a Democrat, called southern democrat. (mostly republican now)

We had door to door salesmen and ice cream vendors in little vans and everyone just walked around on Halloween without any fear.

We had a city pool and the city had another pool for blacks. Most of the BBQ restaurants had a separate section for blacks but those were mainly used for carry out waiting by the late sixties.

Anyone on a motorcycle was considered a criminal. Homosexuals were known as queers but no one knew any actual homosexuals because people didn't tell.

Communists were the bogey men.

The lake nearby had only a few cabins then. Now every inch is developed. The highways were concrete with those little dividers that went clump, clump, clump when you drove over them. And air conditioning was the new thing (only the rich people had it).

Cigarettes in vending machines and there was an actual milkman who would come to your house.

Everyone's phone was the same and you had to dial it.

You had to be there.

	27-09-2002 09:59									#20
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Sounds mortifying Jimmy.

	27-09-2002 10:02									#21
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Imran Siddiqui wrote:

quote: But the 'Washington Whities' wouldn't

There is a high school team called the "Fightin' Whities" and their mascot is a white man wearing a suit and tie, smiling. The caption beneath the picture is "Everythang's gonna be all white".

This was done in protest at another school's refusal to do away with a caricature of an American Indian. It made headline news.

I'm getting this information from J302, a college course that I'm teaching part time at Missouri. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

	27-09-2002 10:05									#22
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Capitalism changes things, very quickly. The town I lived in for ten years has changed beyond recongition for me. I can never go home, it doesn't exist anymore. Even Chicago, that big annoymous city with housing dating back almost a hundred years has changed in the last decade. There used to be used bookstores all over the city, not just a Borders and a Barnes & Noble. There were a variety of coffee shops, now it's all Starbucks and Seatle's Best. That's the way things are.

I'm not sure that this is a good thing for people. Change is good, but at such a pace? It leaves of feeling disconnected from the world, and messes with our sense of place. But that is the nature of the system.

	27-09-2002 10:09									#23
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Maybe it would be better that we all still lived in hovels and tended the livestock...

	27-09-2002 10:10									#24
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arghh!!


not Mr. Fun again

why can blacks do things whites can't? I fail to see adequate justification for this.

on this thread

	27-09-2002 10:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe it would be better that we all still lived in hovels and tended the livestock...

No one here has suggested that is prefered alternative. Contrary to what you may believe, communists prefer industrialized society to agricultural society.

I'm just pointing out to supporters of the system that it is there system that produces the things they do not like.

	27-09-2002 10:12									#26
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Diss, imagine you call your sis a beatch. It has a context and a meaning.

What would you do if a stranger did that?

	27-09-2002 10:13									#27
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My mother's family moved here to get work at the local textile mill. They had eight kids. The mill owned the housing that the employees lived in. Rent was deducted from the paycheck. There was a company store and it took "script" which was basically company money. Employees were paid in script and had to exchange that for US coin if they needed it. Of course that was a little before my time but I still have some of the script that was passed down. All eight of the kids worked at the mill. Most of the grandchildren, including me, worked at the mill. I went to work at the mill when I was sixteen. Made $1.60 an hour. My junior year of high school they let me out of school a bit early to go to work. Worked 2nd shift 3pm till 11 pm, six days a week.

Thats 48 hours a week plus school and I still cut the lawn. Now my son *****es at having to work at the grocery 16 hours a week. And I still cut the lawn.

	27-09-2002 10:15									#28
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Congratulate him on his astuteness.

	27-09-2002 10:15									#29
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You don't think that's progress?

	27-09-2002 10:16									#30
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Anyway I just said all that to say this. I think I have lived long enough and absorbed enough change to be entitled to resent having political correctness shoved down my throat. And I haven't even mentioned my Dad who lives with me and was born before the automobile. Change has a way of overruning folks sometimes.