29-09-2002 03:23									#61
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they burned up whole kurdish villages. how is this "shielding"?

anyway you're discredited by your apathy for the slaughetered by turkey little children and women.

have to go now.

	29-09-2002 03:24									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Yeah, and I'm sure your country Fez, has impeccable human rights throughout history.

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

Did I say anything about my country? My country's human rights record sucks. You want to know about the inquistion? My stomach literally turns about the crimes the old theocratic state committed.

But we have a new government in power.

Paiktis, your favorite Kurdish militants use human shields. Shows how much guts they have.

	29-09-2002 04:30									#63
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Is there some way that we could take Fez's and Paiktis' avatars and animate the arguement that they're having now? It would be highly entertaining.

	29-09-2002 04:33									#64
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33lb of weapons grade uranium? Very unlikely. Do you have any idea how much that would weigh?!

	29-09-2002 04:33									#65
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33 lbs?

	29-09-2002 04:34									#66
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That was meant to be a joke Frogger, alas, it went straight over your head

	29-09-2002 04:36									#67
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What sort of joke was it meant to be?

	29-09-2002 04:37									#68
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A bad one?

	29-09-2002 04:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If I knew the activity of U235 I'd be able to do some order-of-magnitude calcs for this...

There is also the problem that 30 pounds of that stuff may be a critical mass. The exact amount apeers to be classified but its around there, maybe as much as 50 poounds.

The stuff isn't just a beta emiter. Its an alpha emitter PLUS it fissions spontaneously. Now it could be that the total package weighed 30 pounds including the lead. Fraud is possible as well.

	29-09-2002 04:58									#71
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Its minimum critical mass assumes you've put it into a sphere (best geometry). If you've spread it out a bit (even in such a limited space as that under the front seats of a car) then it will not go critical.

	29-09-2002 05:00									#72
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I wonder who was driving the car.... 'Yeah , sure, sitting on top of that much weapons grade U235 isn't dangerous at all. Your kids will be all right- whats three eys and such...."

Well, if the physicists here think its a load of crap, that just confrims my suspicions. Too auspicious a finding for some folks.

	29-09-2002 05:00									#73
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And if you were worried about that, packing it into a few beryllium cases would be enough (IIRC, beryllium has a very high neutron-absorption cross-section)

	29-09-2002 06:05									#74
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Drudge has this image up:



Anyone know what it is? I'm assuming it's the container.

	29-09-2002 06:11									#75
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Does that container say "Made in Germany"?

Damn that Schroeder!

	29-09-2002 06:13									#76
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It says "Made in W. Germany"

That suggests its something like ten years old?

	29-09-2002 06:18									#77
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quote: It says "Made in W. Germany" That suggests its something like ten years old?

Damn that Helmut Kohl!

	29-09-2002 06:27									#78
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That picture was on the Reuters site.

http://www.reuters.com/news_article...StoryID=1508712

If you click on the small image you go to the large one.

Here is the caption for the jpg

quote: Captured weapons-grade uranium weighing more than 33 pounds is on display at the paramilitary police headquarters of southeast province of Sanliurfa, Turkey, September 28, 2002. Turkish gendarmes seized the uranium and detained two men accused of smuggling the material, Anatolian Agency said. Authorities believe the uranium came from an eastern European country and has a value about $5 million. Photo by Anatolian/Reuters

	29-09-2002 06:35									#79
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I wouldn't be so quick to wave this off. I would suspect that for every shipment of this stuff captured en route that at least 6 or 7 gets through.

	29-09-2002 06:56									#80
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Piaktis the hypocrite!

What about bullying Macedonia with embargoes not to use 'Macedonia' as their name, and also persecuting Macedonians in Greece - or Albanians for that matter! No wonder Greece has been supporting Serbia, they have the same Albanian 'problem'...

Greece is so impotent that it has to pick on Plane Spotters!

	29-09-2002 08:05									#81
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If this stuff's emitting hard radiation in immense quantities, why the hell would Turkish police put it on display in one of their stations?! The cab driver/passenger I could understand — heh, maybe they're suicidal and are willing to give up their lives (or reproductive capabilities) for a greater cause — but not the police. Unless, of course, the container has been safely emptied ...

Gatekeeper

	29-09-2002 10:01									#82
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CNN is now reporting that Turkish officials don't know whether it's weapons-grade or uranium ore.

	29-09-2002 10:03									#83
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quote: Turkish officials said they did not know whether the uranium was refined weapons-grade material or naturally occurring uranium, which would have to be refined before it could be used in a weapon. However, they said they did not believe the material posed a radiation danger

If it does not pose a radiation danger then they've obviusly run a geiger counter over it...and if there's anybody there with a basic knowledge of nuke physics they should be able to say that it's therefore not enriched beyond, say, 5% (much too low to build weapon).

	29-09-2002 10:31									#84
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I wouldn't be so quick to wave this off. I would suspect that for every shipment of this stuff captured en route that at least 6 or 7 gets through.

More like 60 or 70 times, no doubt. And not just to Iraq, or Syria, but to anyone who has the money to pay for it. Not just recently either, but since the collapse of the Soviet Union or shortly thereafter.

What interests me is the timing, and the inaccuracy of the original story. We go from 33 lbs of weapons grade stuff to a total 33 lb package which "isn't a radiation threat" - more than half the package weight is going to be lead, and the clear "Made in W. Germany" and inventory markings make it likely it's a commercial lab sample, easily traceable for a good portion of it's history.

All in all, very "convenient" without being very dangerous.

	29-09-2002 11:09									#85
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MtG, et al.:

I hope this wasn't some attempt by Bush's "servants" to stoke the fire against Iraq. I mean, Rummie has already got his facts wrong on that whole inspectors-leaving-Iraq thing in 1998 (he wrongly said they were booted out by Iraq).

And is it just me, or do I find it slightly distasteful to see grown men who've never seen combat up and close — Cheney and Rumsfeld and even Bush Jr. himself to a degree — to be so gung-ho about charging into Iraq. I *know* that we've had presidents and other civil servants in the past w/o military experience get us involved in wars ... but, for some reason, I don't hold it against FDR.

Gatekeeper

	29-09-2002 11:26									#86
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Gatekeeper:

The inspectors bit is only wrong in a semantic sense. Saddam kicked the Americans out, said the rest could stay since an "international" group didn't need to have Americans in it. The Iraqis then continued to obstruct and interfere, to the point the inspectors were getting nothing done. Lawyers in the US would call it a constructive kicking out, just like a constructive contract or constructive termination of employment, so I don't have a problem with that aspect of Rumsfeld's statement.

I do think it "interesting" to say the least, that people like Zinni and Schwarzkopf say to work all the diplomatic angles first and coalition build, while the Bush Chickenhawks say "we're going to kick ass, whether you come along or not"

I'm beginning to think that this is all strategy, and a way to keep the pre-election focus on the possibility (which won't likely materialize) of war, instead of on the economy and issues the Dems would like to raise.

I think the hawk bunch are too vocal for them not to be sending a message - it's just too scripted, compared to the much more serious, generally quiter and more measured tone the first time around.

I'm just waiting for all the "it'll be another Vietnam" crowd to show up, like they did last time, and then the drama will be complete.

	29-09-2002 11:30									#87
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Been there, done that.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...38&#post1287438

	29-09-2002 12:07									#88
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if it turns out this is weapons-grade uranium I say we let Turkey keep it so they can build weapons to nuke Paiktis22's house.

and again for the record, lest some Lurker go along with the g(r)eek's lies, 20% of the Turkish population is Kurdish and many Kurds live in Western Turkey among the Turks. If Turkey really was trying to exterminate the Kurds that would not be the case. There was a brutal civil war there where civilians were killed on both sides, but that is typical of nearly all civil wars.

	29-09-2002 12:24									#89
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It seems that a fraction of the 200B war bill is way better used to help Russia cleaning up the nuclear stockpile.

	29-09-2002 12:35									#90
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MtG:

Heh. So Bush, et al., are using the possibility of war as a political means to beat the tar out of the Dems and ensure one-party rule for at least the next two years, eh? Geez. I had kind of hoped that our politicians could rise above that kind of stuff from time to time and actually become statesmen and women.

I have a long ways to go before I earn my laurels as some ornery realpolitik rooted journalist who can sniff out this sort of political double-play from the get-go. I'm just a tad bit too idealistic yet, it appears.

Gatekeeper