04-10-2002 19:48									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ned paiktis, We in the US were told that Serbia was in the process of ethnically cleansing Kosovo - just as the Serbs had done earlier in Croatia and Bosnia. Was this information untrue?

There is no evidence to suggest that Kosovo was being ethnically cleansed. Mass graves (defined in Kosovo as any grave with more than one person) are not widespread and very few have been found. Of those that have been found, cause of death and ethnic identity can not be determined. Both the FBI and the UN investigators left Kosovo saying they couldn't find any evidence of mass executions.

The mass exodus from Kosovo did not start until after the bombing campaign began. Large numbers of Albanians traveled to Serbia proper, which would tend to argue against an ethnic clenasing campaign. There was a study that said the the areas of evactuation did not match the bombing patterns, but once you look at the maps they provide, you have to really wonder how they came to that conclusion.

The major difference between Kosovo and the break-away republics is that in Kosovo it was a police and army operation and in Bosnia and Croatia it was largely irregulars (regular army did support Serbs in the early part of the revolts in Croatia). Some irregulars (Razdan Karadic?) did slip into Kosovo following the begining of the bombing campaign, but they were removed by the government.

There was an ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo, but it began after NATO took over the province. Nearly all non-Albanians, Serbs, Jews, Greeks, Roma (Gypsies), Romanians, etc, were chased out.

	04-10-2002 21:05									#122
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Well, Che, what happened is eactly what Kissinger predicted would happen, including the destabalization of Macedonia. Now NATO is there and cannot withdraw until Kosovo is declared independent or part of Albania and perhaps Macedonia subdivided along ethnic lines. Kissinger was very harsh on the whole issue of "Imperialist" intervention into ethnic conflicts. Are we sure that paiktis did not write the piece for Kissinger?

	04-10-2002 21:06									#123
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Felch, you are very mediocre on picking on me. You cant even make a tiny scratch on my shiny argumentative armour. But practice makes perfect and untill you decide to keep on "fighting" you will remain just another dumb yankee

	04-10-2002 21:12									#124
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Kissinger is the ultimate pragmatist and an a-moral «puhser» of US interests abroad.

He is notliked because he was the #1 person not to take into account human lives and turbulances caused by hispursuing of US interests.

In the end of the day he has caused the US much more harm than good. A large portion of antimercanism is created while he was a foreign minister.

nationalism is funny. Americans are the most ultra nationalists people there are if you only count the number of people they have killed over the years. Nationalism is a relative issue it would seem.

	04-10-2002 21:14									#125
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Felch, you are very mediocre on picking on me.

He's dead on in his characterization of you though.

	04-10-2002 21:15									#126
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Ned, Kissinger is a pragmatist who covers up his real-politik under wilsonian codes of ethics.

Take away his mock-"morals" (which he uses only to further his interests and he has a very loose and fast manipulation of what "morals" are) and you have a 100% pure realpolitik strategy.

That's what he's all about. He is also under prosecution in France and Greece amongst other countries and he is to be detained if seen anywhere inside these countries terrotories

	04-10-2002 21:16									#127
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of course you'd say that dinodoc. it doesnt mean anything

	04-10-2002 21:54									#128
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A funny incident involving Kissinger is that he had to escape France in the middle of the night in a private plane and be flown back to the US as he was unaware that there was a warrant for his arrest.

He is also responsible for the bloodbath in Chile and for giving the green light for the invasion in east timor. He also played a dirt role in the invasion of Cyprus.

He is not liked because there are reasons to be not liked, just like with everything. (caused the deaths of thousands and flamed up territories being not the least of those).


About Yogo, he just forsaw the vast antimaericanist wave that a US involvement would produce and counted it as worthing more than the US interests in that region.

Pragmatism again. The US is creating more and more «enemies» in very turbulent times. He was trying to minimize that to the bare essentials.

	04-10-2002 21:59									#129
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Astonishingly enough he has a guilt complex against Greeks, over his role in Cyrpus.
It is well documented by top political analysts and journalists that have met him.
He fits the prototype of the anthellene not just because of his thoughts and opinions about Greece but also because of the implimentation of politics against this country. But more about that later.

	04-10-2002 23:00									#130
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paiktis, I think, in a way, Kissinger learned the lesson of Vietnam - we should not intervene in a local civil war or ethnic conflict absent some extraordianary reason like genocide. His article exhibits a definite fear that NATO would end up battling the KLA just like the Serbs before them. He envisioned a repeat of Vietnam where the US replaced the French battling the communists.

But this is Kissinger. The president you seem to like, Clinton, actually did intervene in Kosovo.

Am I right, you do like Clinton?

	04-10-2002 23:04									#131
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Clinton was re-conciliatory and a master of rehtorics. A hell of an actor too. What I think of him is not important what the relations between US - EU were at the time of his presidency are.

He got named the butcher of the Balkans though from everybody in the region except croatians (who easily forgot their massacre of thousand of jews and serbs in the past - but hey! he helped them get their independence ) and albanian cutthroats who never stood a chance in messing up the balkans without NATO aid.


IMo Kissinger didnt "learn" he just takes under consideration that the wave of antimaericanism was never stronger and more widespread in the past. He forsaw and tried to stop this but failed since his "advices" were not followed.

	04-10-2002 23:08									#132
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Oh boy.

Wow, a man from a country where indoor toilets is a novelty is mocking the US yet again, what a surprise.

Ilithios.

	04-10-2002 23:10									#133
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	04-10-2002 23:19									#135
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	04-10-2002 23:40									#136
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You could try to be serious now and then.

	04-10-2002 23:48									#137
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion for example, we in croatia generally like the Irish because we see them as small catholic people oppressed for centuries by a bigger neighbour. like us

That's prolly it. My father is Irish (Well, ancestrally), and prolly has the same sort of feelings.

	04-10-2002 23:50									#138
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Felch, you are very mediocre on picking on me. You cant even make a tiny scratch on my shiny argumentative armour. But practice makes perfect and untill you decide to keep on "fighting" you will remain just another dumb yankee

Well, if you say it, it must be true. I was wrong to ever doubt the knowledge a Greek would have about my own country. Certainly you know more than I ever could about America.

	04-10-2002 23:56									#139
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Oh you know them too you just don't admit them (to a foreigner).

	05-10-2002 00:01									#140
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Look back at what I said. You said the culture America exports is crap, I agreed. I agreed that we've committed atrocities. I agreed to everything that you could support with a reasonable amount of evidence, or where you were more knowledgable than me.

	05-10-2002 00:28									#141
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It's not all crap, I love your music.

	05-10-2002 05:06									#142
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quote: Clinton was re-conciliatory and a master of rehtorics. A hell of an actor too. What I think of him is not important what the relations between US - EU were at the time of his presidency are. He got named the butcher of the Balkans though from everybody in the region

the title Butcher of Balkans is not earned simply by dropping a few bombs

the current Butcher of Balkans is Milosevic, whose career includes four wars: slovenia, croatia, bosnia and kosovo. who can beat that?

quote: except croatians (who easily forgot their massacre of thousand of jews and serbs in the past

you should know better then to pull old who-did-what-first question in the balkans

croats got the very last beating in wwII. after the end of combat, over 100 000 died from partisan revenge and in 'marches of death'

and not to mention huge number of the partisans were - also croats. so as a nation, we got the beating few can match. our whole history is full of tragedy, so wwII was no exception


the point is, you cant try to justify irrational actions of the present with something that happened in the past.

serbs justify their rebbelion in croatia with wwII (as I showed, we could do the same)

in bosnia, they actually claim war started when some muslim killed some serb on a wedding

it is clear both of these reasons are nonsense

	05-10-2002 05:15									#143
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and about jews, more were killed in greece in ww2 then in croatia in ww2. while greeks turned the head the other way, or charged high for transport by ship

they were killed everywhere germans set their foot. also in serbia you seem to glorify, belgrade was proclaimed the first 'judenfrei' city

if you want to dig through history, there is enough dirt in the region to cover the planet. probably twice too

	05-10-2002 05:40									#144
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che, I read these repeated claims by you about kosovo

I can understand paiktis with his 'serbs are our orthodox brothers' point of view, but I am curious about your motives
do you defend Milosevic, because

- you are anti NATO in general
- you think Milosevic was a commie/socialist attacked by capitalists
- you like serbs in general, and dont like albanians in general
- you simply want truth to be known

...or something else I missed?

	05-10-2002 05:50									#145
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No vet legion, your history in WW2 is shameful and cannot be compared with that of serbia or greece. while the last 2 fought to protect its people (jews and whatnot included since they were greeks) and got captured in the process, you actively slaughtered them.

to deny this is to be yourself a nationalist and you know it very well

1941 - Nazi Germany invades. A 'Greater Croatia' is formed, also comprising most of Bosnia and western Serbia. A fascist puppet government is installed under Ante Pavelic. The regime acts brutally against Serbs and Jews as it seeks to create a Catholic, all-Croat republic. Hundreds of thousands lose their lives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1097156.stm

that's your history and your shame.


now in the recent war with yugoslavia Tudjamn was himself a "milosevic" and did what milosevic did. he just didnt take the rap for it

	05-10-2002 05:53									#146
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also if you say you understand my affiliation with serbia since it's orthodox then i can say i understand europe's stance on the issue against serbia since it's catholic.

if one holds water the other does too. and from the looks of it, it did, a lot.


even felch, a yankee who cant even point to the map where yugo is, has a father who thinks all catholics should be defended. is it too much of a stretch of an imagination to guess why croatia, a country which actively took part in genocide in the past and also now, never got punished for it, since it was catholic?


now of course this is mostly absurd, but so is your own claim

	05-10-2002 10:21									#147
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paiktis, What does Greece and Serbia want NATO to do now about Kosovo and Macedonia?

Withdraw and turn it back over to the Serbs? Allow the KLA to form a government? What?

	05-10-2002 10:26									#148
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Blah blah de ****ing blah, Greece is ****ing great, they'd never do any of the awful ****ing things that those American pig dogs do, etc. Can we let the ****ing thread die already? Now you're just trolling the trolls, and it's preventing the formation of some potentially lively (yet ultimately short-lived) troll threads. Share the wealth, says I.

Although I must admit, I've gotta give Paiktis credit for making his nationalist trolls as blatantly offensive as possible. Not only do you get the termites out of the woodwork this way, but you also help insure that your troll thread doesn't die a slow painful death. Wutang, big fella. Wutang.

	06-10-2002 08:29									#149
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 also if you say you understand my affiliation with serbia since it's orthodox then i can say i understand europe's stance on the issue against serbia since it's catholic. ... now of course this is mostly absurd, but so is your own claim

So 'Catholic' Great Britain, Catholic Netherlands, Catholic Germany... oh, no, sorry, I meant Protestant Great Britain, Protestant Germany and the Protestant Netherlands. Which other 'Catholic' Protestant countries did you have in mind? Sweden? Norway? Finland? Estonia? Latvia? Denmark? And that's without including people who would say they hold no 'political' allegiance to either the Catholic or Protestant confession.

	06-10-2002 20:19									#150
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quote: paiktis, What does Greece and Serbia want NATO to do now about Kosovo and Macedonia? Withdraw and turn it back over to the Serbs? Allow the KLA to form a government? What?

I don't know what Greece and Serbia want, I know what I want: Bring back Yugoslavia!

100 years ago, the Balkan socialist parties were working together for a uninted socialist balkan state. This vision was shattered by the balkan wars of course.