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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Ok. The U.S. Judicial System Sucks. I Admit It.
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SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
Thumbs down  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:32 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Ok. The U.S. Judicial System Sucks. I Admit It. Put an end to popups!

Besides not having uniform penalties on crime, and besides allowing tobacco companies that lose lawsuits to raise prices to consumers in order to pay their fine, etc., etc.

I just heard on television that the Chief Financial Officer of Enron has been freed on a 5 million dollar bond.

"Well, jeez, Sloww. What's wrong with that? That's a pretty hefty bail bond".

Here's why.
Where did he get the money?
He got it from the illegal activities he'd been under arrest for partaking in.
He in essense stole from the employees and stockholders of Enron, then uses the money to get out of jail.

Why did the judicial system allow bond?
Well, the system may be chickenshit, but it's not stupid.
Money is money.



Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:43 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Meanwhile the poor bloke who got caught stealing an orange rots in jail until trial...

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
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Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:45
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If you will think this through you might see a different perspective. He is innocent until proven guilty. He earned a good living from his job and might be able to meet that bond without using stolen funds if any actually were. You can't assume otherwise until trial.

This issue is flight risk and we can only hope that he is not financially able to skip the country. I don't like to see him out either but your implication that the court let him walk for money is incorrect. The bond is forfeit only if he fails to show, their is no profit in it for the court.

Unless you have personal knowledge and proof of bribery. If so I am sure you are willing to share it.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:46 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Exactly.
Them that's gots it, by whatever method, keeps it; those that don't, can rot.

Filthy freaking orange thief.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:46
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I'll be the last one to defend the US legal system, but isn't it possible that a lot of his enron-related assets are frozen and he has to use other funds ?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland
I'll be the last one to defend the US legal system, but isn't it possible that a lot of his enron-related assets are frozen and he has to use other funds ?
Yes.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:49
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Tired of ads?

Don't agree with me. It irritates me.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Jul 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:49 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Even so he makes 5 million on his day off...

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:50 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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That's crap, Jimmy.
I see your point on most things, not this.

And Doc, you really and truly believe that all the man's funds are separated ant categorized so well that "his own funds" are used?

Give me a break.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
Question  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Don't agree with me. It irritates me.
What doesn't irritate you?

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
King

Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:53
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Of course I cannot deny the inequities of the judical system.

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
King

Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
That's crap, Jimmy.
I see your point on most things, not this.



People should be convicted in court not in the press.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:00
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Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
What doesn't irritate you?


Fluffy little clouds.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:02 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Um, not talking convicted. Talking using ill-gotten gains to make bail.

Let's use a drug dealer as a comparison.
The house, the car, the boat, whatever, would be siezed.
All bank accounts frozen.

What makes this guy different?

The CFO. The guy who watches the money.
If anyone has an ethical duty to watch what's happening, it's this guy.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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Cool  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:05 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland


Fluffy little clouds.


You're ahead of Fez then.
A rainbow caused Fez to foam at the mouth.

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
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Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Um, not talking convicted. Talking using ill-gotten gains to make bail.

Let's use a drug dealer as a comparison.
The house, the car, the boat, whatever, would be siezed.
All bank accounts frozen.

What makes this guy different?

The CFO. The guy who watches the money.
If anyone has an ethical duty to watch what's happening, it's this guy.


I certainly agree that Fastow should be severly punished if proven guilty. I depise the sort of corporate piracy that has been at the focal point of the news. But you are comparing apples and oranges. Fastow was paid a significant salary. It is reasonable to assume he might be able to make the bail from that source. There is no indication that he embezeled funds. Therefore you must prove the case and sentence him on that.

In the case of the drug dealer, yes, drugs and assets that can reasonably be thought to be connected to be a part of the business of drug dealing can be frozen. This would not prevent the accused drug dealer from making bail if he had a source of legitimate income that could reasonably be expected to support the level of bail required.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:23 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Tired of ads?

Not talking embezzlement either, Jimmy.
Talking about lying, no ethics, and costing people their savings and retirement.

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
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Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:28
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For which punishment should be harsh Slow, after conviction. But there are no grounds to deny bail unless there is evidence that the funds used to pay that bail were obtained as a direct result of a crime. Funds Fastow received as salary cannot be assumed to be such.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:32 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Ok. He has more rights than the people he and his running buddies bilked.
It's already known Enron screwed the people AND their pooch.

I understand now.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Ok. He has more rights than the people he and his running buddies bilked.
If they want thier money back, they can bring a civil tort against him.

Ming is offline Ming
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Jan 1970
time: 23:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:36 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Hey slow... that's just the way things are. He is indeed innocent until proven quilty. There is no reason to deny a person bail unless they are considered a flight risk or a danger to society. As far as his money goes, while you may not like it, he was a rich man before he took the job, and it's impossible AT THIS TIME to prove that his current total net worth is solely based on "alleged" illegal activites.

If and when he is proven guilty... then he will get what he deserves.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:38
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Put an end to popups!

Will he go to real jail, or the country club jail ?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:39
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White collar criminals go to country club prison (minimum security).

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:40 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Whatever.
The point was already made that the starving food thief would stay in jail, and they would.
Meanwhile, Mr. Screwtheemployee walks, using their money.
That isn't right, I don't care what rationale you use.
The people he stole from, that's right, stole from, paid this guy's bail.
Nope. Nothing wrong with this picture.

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
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Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:41
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I hope Ming is right. But I am afraid he will get a relatively light sentence. I would support much harsher sentences than one normally sees in this sort of thing.

But irregardless of our outrage we should support the process of law. Capricious though it often seems.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:41
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Well the solution to that one might be to bring equal rights to the food thief, rather than take them away from the white collar criminal.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:43 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Tired of ads?

I knew a manufacturing buyer who was canned for taking little gifts from vendors. I mean little nothings of any consequence.

A damned CFO has less ethical responsibilites than some old woman trying to make it to retirement?
That's crap; and to even think for a second this bozo didn't know what was going on, is crap too.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:44 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
The people he stole from, that's right, stole from, paid this guy's bail.


Again... he was a VERY RICH man BEFORE he took the job. And until he is proven GUILTY, you can't say he stole the money...

Like it or not, that's the system. And I'm damn glad that I live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty!

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:46
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Remove this text

If you can afford a decent defense lawyer.

Capt Dizle is offline Capt Dizle
King

Sep 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 03-10-2002 20:48
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I watched Fastow's attorney making a statement in which he claimed that Fastow was hired specifically to make the sort of deals that have come to light. He claims that the entire board and Kenneth Lay defined Fastow's job explictly as the process of manufacturing false profits to inflate the stock price. It seems likely that their strategy is to make a deal with the government that would lead to the prosecution of the whole rotten barrel. It will be interesting to see how that will play out.

 
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