05-10-2002 14:11									#1
	The time of overseas exploration is nearly upon us! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As the title says, the time of overseas exploration is nearly upon us! Germany already has Astronomy, and soon Germany or another civ will have Navigation. We must prepare for this so we can be the first to discover the lost civs!
I propose the following plan: build three galleys (or more if the CP deems this possible) and position them in the Persian shore (eastern-most point of the continent), or in the sea near the Persian shore if we get Astronomy by then. Once we learn Navigation (should be a top priority) we must send the galleys immediately in three different directions to maximize our chances of discovering the lost civs.
I suggest that we start building galleys in Mingapulco right now! At some point we may also have to rush the rest of the shields necessary to complete the galleys so they can be in position for their voyage of exploration in time.

Sir Ralph: I support the idea of sending suicide galleys even right now but I'm afraid there's not much public support for this, so I'm not going to try to promote this idea and rather promote a safer plan that will get more support from the public.

	05-10-2002 14:43									#2
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This sounds like a do-able plan. One thing though: I say four Galleys so we can launch them from the "four corners of the globe". One off Sourthern Persian coast heading east. One off Aztec coast heading east. One off Greek Island heading west and one off Abananaba Minor heading east. With in one turnchat of getting Nav we WILL have discovered the lost civs!

	05-10-2002 16:19									#3
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You're right on the absense of public support for wasting resources... we have pathetically under-developed infrastructure... suicide gallies will have a to wait until we reach at least parity in that area, I would think...

	05-10-2002 17:50									#4
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Don't forget plan Vodka! After next turn we will be able to build galleys in New Cherbourg and send them off from the Greek coast!

	05-10-2002 18:21									#5
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Oh... so that's what Plan Vodka is.
Okay then: one galley near New Cherbourg, one galley in the Persian shores, one galley in eastern Abananaba Minor and one galley in western Abananaba Minor. How is that?

Btw, I've just noticed that the Iroquois have named their city on the island near the Greek shores 'Centralia'. Kind of a funny name for a town in a location such as this, don't you think?

Last edited by Shiber on 05-10-2002 at 18:26

	05-10-2002 18:31									#6
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I'd be in support of sending two to four galleys to explore. There are one or two locations which seem to be most probable (chances of success seem good), and the benefits of finding the lost civilizations far outweigh the loss of a few galleys.

From a Foreign Affairs point of view, there's little more valuable to us now then finding those civs first, in my opinion.

-- adaMada

	05-10-2002 19:22									#7
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If it's possible, I suppose your guys are right. It's just that I worry (as others) about the shields that could be saved and spent on more improvements at this critical point.

We're at something of a crossroads, with not enough resources to build all of the many projects we'd like to build... so we have to prioritize - no decision may be inherently better than the others (though one may actually be better, I'd argue that there are too many unknowns to be sure) - it's just we have to decide...

If a majority thinks we should spend the necessary shields on those gallies, so be it .

	05-10-2002 22:25									#8
	Got spare money?

NEARLY?????

The possible returns on such an investment are huge! we should press on at all haste. We are already at least 3, if not more, techs behind the tech leader, Herr Bismarck. We can't keep up buying, and as i said before, wars for tech don't work well when the enemy kicks your ass, which might be the case if we send knights v possible musketmen in size 10 cities...

Also, as the great chart from E_T in the foreign office thread ( The Foreign Office: working for your convinience in knowing our enemies, since the foundation of the state. Join Us!) many civs now have astronomy. If we don't begin now, we have already lost the race, and as SirRalph pointed out, the potential benefits are immense!

WE HAVE TO GET STARTED TODAY! (or tommorrow, at the chat)

	05-10-2002 22:28									#9
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Arnelos, I fully understand but please keep in mind that first contact with the missing civs will give us TREMENDOUS amounts of cash!
We can sell them tech. We can sell them world maps. We can sell them luxuries. We can get excellent prices from them for our tech and our luxuries because we'll have techs that none of the other lost civs have and we'll be the sole providers of 2 to 5 luxuries.
Btw, this is another reason why we shouldn't resort to selling contacts to the Abananaban civs until one of those civs is about to or has discovered the lost civs by itself. Should this happen we can make a profit of over a thousand lytons from selling contacts with the 3 lost civs for the 11 other civilizations of Abananaba.

	05-10-2002 22:52									#10
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Shiber, I know... it's just that the effort has a very high probability of being fruitless... so determining whether this is worth doing is a lot like deciding whether to put your money in a slot machine... you could win A TON of money, but he chances of you doing so for your investment are actually rather small.

If your goal is to maximize potential gains, you go for it... the potential gains are FAR higher, yes.

However, if your goal is to minimize your losses, then the prudent course is not to spend the resources building the galleys - as there's a good chance you'll spend all that production for no return.

Deciding one over the other is really a matter of preference... as the determination of which one is superior is decided almost entirely by chance in this case.

	05-10-2002 22:59									#11
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Am I wrong in saying that Navigation gives us access to all squares (Ocean and Sea?)

If not, then how can we loose? They've got to be there somewhere, and if we set out before the AI does and take a logical path, we're very likely to find them. There's only so many places you can fit a decent sized continent ...

-- adaMada

	05-10-2002 23:17									#12
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adaMada,

That being said, the possibility of losing our gallies in storms at sea is very high... not to mention that w/o foreknowledge of just where the coast is in all that shadowed area our chance of having even one ship be able to reach the opposing coast in a single turn is slim. With the attrition rate for galleys such as it is, it is quite unlikely that even 1 of the 4 would survive while making it to a far shore.

This leaves us with 2 options:

1. Build more than 4 ships... each additional ship increases our odds more than the last ship added did (this is because each additional both raises the chance that a given number of ships will survive the first turn AND more ships covers more sea area, raising the chance of spotting land).

2. Just take the shot we have, hoping for that lucky hit (spot land AND survive)

NOTE: It is VERY key to remember that we are not playing where we can reload and go back to re-do the turn where we lost our galley here... in this game, if we lose the galley, we lose the galley. As such, if any of you are the type of player who reloads when the lose a lot of gallies at sea, you should keep in mind that losses are going to be more severe here .

	05-10-2002 23:38									#13
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quote: We are already at least 3, if not more, techs behind the tech leader, Herr Bismarck.

One good thing is that germany is landlocked but with the AI, when they get their greedy hands on Navigation then suddenly everyone but us will have it.

	05-10-2002 23:47									#14
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Can someone remind me what the odds of a galley dying at sea is with navigation?

What tech do we need before we can build real ships?

-- adaMada

	05-10-2002 23:52									#15
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No public support? I've supported the idea of building up our navy and exploring the rest of the world for a long time now.

Seriously, we need to have a vote on this, as I believe that more people will see the benefits of building up and sending out our ships to explore for the lost civs.

Isolationism never really helped anyone.

	06-10-2002 00:16									#16
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I have NEVER seen a galley be lost at sea after Nav. Don't get my original post wrong. I'm all for building the Four Galleys of Quest but I am for positioning them on the shore and keep them there until we get Nav, then send them out.

	06-10-2002 00:24									#17
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Galleys can never traverse ocean squares safely, even after Navigation. Only Caravels (available after Astronomy) or better ships can do that.
Caravels cost 40 shields to build (10 shields more than galleys do). Alternatively, we can upgrade our single galley in the harbor of BHQ (will cost 40 gold) to save some on costs.
By all means, this should not deter us from building ships to scout out for the lost civs! The benefits will be enormous!

	06-10-2002 00:27									#18
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Donegeal, once we get Astronomy we can move them to the sea (safely) and gain a headstart of one turn.

	06-10-2002 01:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Galleys can never traverse ocean squares safely, even after Navigation.

It doesn't matter what kind of ship you have; just what tech you have. Galleys can cross ocean with Navigation or Magnetism. I haven't personally done this, since I always upgrade my ships to at least caravels by the time navigation rolls around, but I've seen AI galleys out in the middle of the ocean, and it's programmed not to take risks with its ships.

I think we should build several ships for this venture. Maybe just three instead of four, but the potential benefits are too great to pass up, especially since we can make good guesses at locations for the lost continent, something the AI can't do.

	06-10-2002 05:37									#20
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Kloreep- i am quite sure that the civilopedia clearly states that in no case galleys can safely traverse ocean, only sea, after astronomy or navigation, so, we can send our galleys after we discover astronomy, with some chance they would pass the ocean blockade and find us some decent continent to trade with it's inhabitants. I'm in favor of this plan, and i think an expeditionary navy of 4 galleys won't hinder our economy that badly.

	06-10-2002 06:08									#21
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I'm pretty sure galleys can cross oceans with navigation, but I wont swear to it as I always upgrade mine. I've seen the ai send them out in the ocean though post-navigation to serve as ferries for invading troops, and ive seen somewhere a comment by soren that the ai never sends its ships on suicide missions.

-----

Oh and I agree that we should invest in a minimum of 3 ships, and Ill leave it to our elected officials better judgement as to where is best to build from and explore to first.

-----
Oh and I assume the way we profit from being first is making all the trades we can with the foreign civs, then selling contact? The other ai civs will make contact anyways pretty soon on their own if we buy navigation from them.

	06-10-2002 07:36									#22
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When Navigation is available, I think that, within limits, we must do our best to attempt to purchase it, and then we must build two or more Galleons, garrisoned with either explorers or musketmen (if we have Gunpowder by the time of the discovery), and we should send them somewhere to the east of the Persian coast. I suggest the Persian coast because it would seem logical that the Zulu would be nearer to the (remnants) of the Persians, as far as distance than to any other civilization in existence.

	06-10-2002 08:26									#23
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We must try to find the missing civs as soon as possible. The rewards of finding them first are great!

Of course, we shouldn't expect to get too much from them. There's only 4 missing civs and they're probably technologially backwards, and low on cash.

	06-10-2002 09:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy When Navigation is available, I think that, within limits, we must do our best to attempt to purchase it, and then we must build two or more Galleons, garrisoned with either explorers or musketmen (if we have Gunpowder by the time of the discovery), and we should send them somewhere to the east of the Persian coast. I suggest the Persian coast because it would seem logical that the Zulu would be nearer to the (remnants) of the Persians, as far as distance than to any other civilization in existence.

Actually the Persians, Babylonians, and Zulu are all Mid East, while Russia, England, and France are all European, and NONE of them are anywhere near each other (Zulu aren't even on the continent with the other Mid East) so I think the culturally linked concept is useless in this case.

	07-10-2002 03:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Galleys can never traverse ocean squares safely, even after Navigation. Only Caravels (available after Astronomy) or better ships can do that.

Sorry - you're wrong about that. Galleys (and Caravels) =can= travel on Ocean squares safely with Navigation.

---------------
I already posted this in this thread:

I think there is another continent North-East of the English City of Warwick. Look at the sea and ocean tiles.

Let's build some ships ASAP. We'll get Astronomy in a few turns, and when we do, the ships should already be in position. A RoP with England may be necessary.

With Astronomy, we can safely travel on sea squares with our Galleys. And we'll be able to build Caravels.

Remember: the profits that we can make from First Contact with the Lost Civs are HUGE.

	07-10-2002 03:10									#26
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I think there is another continent North-East of the English City of Warwick. Look at the sea and ocean tiles.

If there WAS a continent connected to Britain by sea they sould have already made contact.

	07-10-2002 03:29									#27
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Maybe they are just lousy sailors ? ;-)

More seriously - they might not have had the resources to send a ship.

	07-10-2002 06:40									#28
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Like Genghis here, I doubt that the other civilizations are near Warwick if Liz isn't trying to give us rotten deals for buying communications with Mao, Shaka, Tokugawa, Gandhi, and that bunch of stinkers.

In some ways, it's a good thing that these guys are all on another continent, eh?

	07-10-2002 11:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Sorry - you're wrong about that. Galleys (and Caravels) =can= travel on Ocean squares safely with Navigation.

I should have known... the Civilopedia is everything but accurate. I should have tested this myself before I said so.
Anyway, I tested it now and you're absolutely right. Thanks for correcting me!