05-10-2002 21:48									#1
	Killing Clone Civs - Discussion Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm in the apolyton chat right now talking to a few people, and TKG brought up the issue of "clone civs". Civs with the same attributes but different UUs. (Japan, Aztecs, and Celts are all going to be mil/reg IIRC).

The obvious solution (without coding new abilities, duh) would to give each civ 3 abilities.

so, who would you give what?

would you make any major changes (completely tear apart a civ's abilities?

	05-10-2002 22:09									#2
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Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.

	05-10-2002 22:59									#3
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Yup, Warp is right about that. The only real way to solve the problem is to make an entirely new variable, like suceptive (sp?) to goverment forms. Ofcourse then you'd have to make the gov types less simplified.

	05-10-2002 23:36									#4
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Well, reality shows that there ARE some civilizations that are close to each others by their strenght. It doesn't stop them to be different civs, they just have common strenghts so it's not THAT bad.

	05-10-2002 23:41									#5
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I don't actually mind the cloning TOO much, as I still have a blast with UU and historically speaking I dig thinking I'm a certain civ while playing. Only technically I see that with 4 traits there could be more combinations.

However, before those of you get too pissed off about cloning just think back to the days of civ 1 and 2 before traits existed and remeber the good times.

	06-10-2002 03:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.

yeah as opposed to 15 that we have right now... still better.
(1 - 6 numbers representing 6 types of trait)

1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5,1-6
2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 2-6
3-4,3-5, 3-6
4-5, 4-6
5-6
= 15
Reason that the aztec and Japan share same trait is due to this reason. Even if mil/rel wasn't duped, some other trait would have been.

3 trait would provide 5 more than 2 trait:
123, 124, 125, 126
134, 135, 136
145, 146
156

234, 235, 236
245, 246
256

345, 346
356

456
= 20

I personally mod to have 3 trait per civ becaue I can go for commercial, industrious and Religious (and if I wanna go warmongering, put mil instead of ind) all at the same time. Making it 3 will alleviate duping problems bu won't solve it. When 4 trait is used, the number decreases back to 15.

1234, 1235, 1236
1245, 1246
1256
1345, 1346
1356
1456

2345, 2346
2356
2456

3456
=15

If you want my opinion on solution? add newtrait! adding one new trait will give you 6 more possibility with 2 trait combination, since you have 7 types of trait to mix and match now.

If adding new trait is not an option, UU should be drastically different (or placed in different era) so that playing style for cloned civ is as different as possible. For example, both civ with sci/ind trait could be toatally differently played by one nation having a iroquois like UU and other Hoplite UU.

	06-10-2002 09:30									#7
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IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC

	06-10-2002 10:21									#8
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quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC

Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.

	06-10-2002 17:52									#9
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quote: Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.

Of course it makes difference.
You have a different UU.

And UUs are very important stretegicly.

	07-10-2002 00:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Of course it makes difference. You have a different UU. And UUs are very important stretegicly.

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about brianshapiro's suggestion of changing strategies and priorities in the editor. These make no difference to a human with the civ. The UU makes a great difference, of course, I know that.

Back to the original post: I think adding one more ability would be best. That'd give 21 combinations. The extra 3 would have to be clone civs, but you could give them slightly different starting techs - like with Aztecs and Japan right now.

I have no idea what the ability would be, though.

	07-10-2002 00:42									#11
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21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?

	07-10-2002 01:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II 21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?

Mil/Rel, Mil/Com, Mil/Ex, Mil/Ind, Mil/Sci (that's 5), Mil/New, Rel/Com, Rel/Ex, Rel/Ind, Rel/Sci (10), Rel/New, Com/Ex, Com/Ind, Com/Sci, Com/New (15), Ex/Ind, Ex/Sci, Ex/New, Ind/Sci, Ind/New (20), Sci/New.

That's 21.

	07-10-2002 03:41									#13
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Yes, the number of combinations of 7 objects taken 2 at a time is 21. An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.

	07-10-2002 04:28									#14
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Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?

I can only think of agricultural (but that would maybe mess up the game's balance in the beginning).

	07-10-2002 12:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?

1. Agricultural
+1 food (in the city, after size x)
cheaper granary, aqueduct, hospital

2. Maritime
+1 movement on sea
cheaper harbors
(Some problems could occur on Pangaeea ... )

3. Nationalistic
better chances to succeed in espionage missions
more resistant to cultural assimilation (less chances for cities to defect/flip from you and more resistors if your cities are conquered)
less war weariness
better trade/diplomatic deals
(Example from the current civs: France; or otherwise: Hebrews, Serbs, Irish, etc)

	07-10-2002 15:22									#16
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These are good ideas tiberius, but a problem with maritime is that it kills the wonders which give +1 movement on sea. if a marotime got those wonders, well a terime could go faster then a destroyer: very wierd.

and as for nationalistic, I like the idea, but it shouldn't have better trade/diplomacy with other countries but slightly worse unless those countries are nationalistic too. And it should be called something else, because nationalism is a science that can be discovered. How about calling it patriotism or something?

	07-10-2002 18:27									#17
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Patriotism? Not bad.

Why should they have worse results from diplomacy? I mean, such civs are usually more 'stubborn' when it comes to protecting their national interest.

	07-10-2002 21:34									#18
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Well, Tiberius, the way I figure it is that ultra-nationalistic birds of a feather flock together, like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany and Franco's Spain. However other more 'moderate' nations shun them finding they're selfrightousness arrogent and demeaning. The effect is seen even today: when modern nations like France or USA or Israel get all uppity with their own superiority, other countries aren't as welcoming to their retoric.

	08-10-2002 00:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.

Yep, but then you can't pick any combination you want. Right now you can.

And I just got another idea. Instead of adding a new ability, one might allow a civ to have the same ability twice. This would give all the usual effects (once; double industrious will not make your workers four times as fast) plus something extra. I was thinking something like this:

Double commercial: All citizens produce 1 gold, regardless of their function. Resistors aren't counted. Tax collectors produce a total of 2 gold.

Double industrious: All squares, including water, that produce no shields now produce 1. This may be further enhanced by government bonuses. (These civs can't build Offshore Platforms, because they already get production from water squares.)

Double scientific: All optional techs cost half their normal price to research. (If you buy them from another civ you'll have to pay full price.)

Double expansionist: Workers and settlers have movement 2. Scouts have movement 2, treat all terrain as roads. Explorers have movement 3, treat all terrain as roads.

Double religious: Enemy cities with your citizens have double chance to flip to you. Own cities with your citizens (so not including just captured cities) have half chance to flip to another civ.

Double militaristic: All units may attack multiple times in the same turn.

Well, what do you all think?

	08-10-2002 10:44									#20
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Zero-Tau

Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?

For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.


aahz_capone

I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.

	08-10-2002 15:47									#21
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Y'know what the real problem is? Too many civilizations.

	08-10-2002 16:27									#22
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Nooooo!!!!!!

One can never have too many civs! Ther must be millions!



And one day, I will RULE THEM ALL!!!!


MUH HU HA HA HA HA HAHAAAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

	08-10-2002 19:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?

Well, there's 28 combinations and only 24 civs. But if someone could come up with 4 more civs, adding 2 traits would be great.

quote: For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.

There isn't really any real life equivalent. I was just thinking game terms. Besides, I'd prefer for new traits to be added. As for the gameplay, yes, balance would be very difficult. I thought a bit about this myself, and my original suggestion will almost certainly lead to overpowered civs.

quote: aahz_capone I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.

I second that! But there's a bit of trouble with capone's suggestion: "Better deals" will mean nothing in MP, and "reduced war weariness" will only be useful under some governments. The two other abilities are nice, though. Maybe add "Immune to propaganda", as with religious.

	09-10-2002 02:10									#24
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I think you are missing the point.

I think it is nice to play with your own nationality.

Anyway, I think all of your ideas could apply to the English, and so we would end up being a super-civ.

	09-10-2002 02:19									#25
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Ok, destroyer has a point, playing your own nationality (and for that matter acting like it) is way fun.

However, even though all civs share some bit of patriotism, or at one point were industrial or militant, some civs just more than other for longer periods of time, which is why engalnd isn't a super civ. I mean, if it was, it would have gotten to alpha centauri by now...

	09-10-2002 02:55									#26
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Hey, we are too busy pushing through the US foreign policy and appologising to all our old colonies for bringing medicine, education, irrigation, roads, laws (or was that the Romans) and great big guns,as well as bringing the rest of the world a common language, science, literature, music, television, football, the BBC, baddies in films and decent packets of crisps.

	09-10-2002 06:53									#27
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I like the idea of a civ having the same trait doubled up. This would result in 21 combinations.

Alternatively, keep two traits-- but have one be a primary trait, the other a secondary trait. (Example: Mil/Sci would be different from Sci/Mil.) Whether the primary trait would be the current version powered up (like Zero-Tau's double-traits) or the secondary trait be weakened from the current version, I don't know. Anyway, you'd get 30 combinations, more than enough for 24 civs.

Or varying degrees of traits (including negative versions-- i.e. negative Industrious would slow down worker rate, negative Commercial would increase corruption, etc.).

* Vlad Antlerkov falls asleep on keyboard

	09-10-2002 12:09									#28
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Antlerkov has a good idea, positive and negative traits and primary/secondary traits could be put together in a system of points, like +2 for economy and industry, -1 for commercial etc. per civ.... Then that could be fixed to the favourite form of gov for that civ (like communism for Russia, democracy for ammerica) to give extra benifits and...

no wait...

OMG!! That's SMAC!!

AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!

	10-10-2002 01:08									#29
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I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible. The best solution, IMO, would be to simply add one or two new traits. The second best would be Vlad's suggestion of having a primary/secondary attribute, or adding the possibility of double-traits. Anything beyond that and things start to get a bit too complicated.

	10-10-2002 04:38									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Zero-Tau I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible.

Noooooooooooo! No more dumbing down. I want a million cominations that I will never fully understand. Keeps it fresh.

SMAC had it right though. With a bit of tweeking to make it relevant, it could have ben used in civ - just like the deplomacy ( oh Ill just stop now or Ill be here all day)