07-10-2002 05:25									#1
	War Academy - Persia defeated, Aztec-American War, what next? Tired of ads?

The Persian's have been utterly defeated by us in battle and have given in to our demands; they now hold only one city (Hamadan) which is north and borders the Greeks, Germans, and Aztecs.

As I speak the Aztec's and American's are fighting a fierce battle for domination of the American highlands, and soon we shall see Lincoln capitulating. Although progress is being made to "liberate" the American cities from potential Aztec rule, intel predicts that America shall fall to the Aztecs shortly.

While this is going on, we must discuss our options for the future: Some speak of warring with our weak neighbor France. Others look north to the land of the infidel Germans as territory ripe for conquest. And still others propose we draft plans for an invasion of England...

What is our Manifest Destiny and what direction will that destiny carry us?

	07-10-2002 06:25									#2
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Well, this is my personal opinion.

We are somewhat foolish in allowing these beaten civilizations to survive, once they are down to two or three, or in the case of Persia, one city. We should rid ourselves of bad business in future, so as to save ourselves from future (pitiful) nuisance, and to take as much potentially valuable land as possible. In my opinion, we should have destroyed the Americans and the French when we had the chance. In the case of the former, belligerents are now doing that themselves, when we ourselves should be in there taking what is left of Lincoln's land, instead of simply sitting back and watching it all fall. I believe that we should have destroyed Lincoln while we had the chance, instead of letting the Aztecs do it instead. I also think that we should have taken out the pitiful remains of the French "Empire", but now it may be simply foolhardy to try it again, especially if Bismarck is on good terms with Miss d'Arc. Finally, I believe that there is really no reason in the world that we should leave the Persians around, with only one city. It is good business to do away with such problems, even as only an example. The idea of leaving the Persians with a single city strikes me as remotely pitiful, and it is my opinion that we should have occupied Hamadan and executed that war criminal Xerxes, and then settled down to build up our culture. I think that if we start a war to take down an enemy, we shouldn't leave the job half finished, and Persia is an excellent example. If we hadn't just now sent our terms, I'd say we should go in and mop them up for good, it only makes sense.

As for the future, I do think that we must have an up to date defensive/offensive standing army on our hands at all time, especially now that our German friends are building up their own forces, and have a special hatred for our own "unclean race". I don't think, though, that we should in future look for war, but if we are faced with war to save our people, we must not shy away from it.

	07-10-2002 06:37									#3
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mop op persia, america, and france. our empire sprawls across the entire continent.

	07-10-2002 06:46									#4
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Quite. I think it would only be to our benefit to round up all of our old enemies for their just desserts and our benefits. It can only make us more powerful than we already are, the beloved of the banana and the envy of all below the celestial dome.

	07-10-2002 08:03									#5
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what uber said. From sea to shining sea.

	07-10-2002 08:24									#6
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The Persians still have 3 cities, Hamadan, Sardis, and Sidon.

	07-10-2002 08:36									#7
	Re: War Academy - Persia defeated, Aztec-American War, what next? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic The Persian's have been utterly defeated by us in battle and have given in to our demands; they now hold only one city (Hamadan) which is north and borders the Greeks, Germans, and Aztecs.

Persia has four (4) Cities left: Hamadan, Sardis, Sidon & Sameria

quote: As I speak the Aztec's and American's are fighting a fierce battle for domination of the American highlands, and soon we shall see Lincoln capitulating. Although progress is being made to "liberate" the American cities from potential Aztec rule, intel predicts that America shall fall to the Aztecs shortly.

We should be agle to beat them to Boston and Maybe New York.

quote: While this is going on, we must discuss our options for the future: Some speak of warring with our weak neighbor France. Others look north to the land of the infidel Germans as territory ripe for conquest. And still others propose we draft plans for an invasion of England...

Germany had Gunpowder, but it is not known if they have Saltpeter.

quote: What is our Manifest Destiny and what direction will that destiny carry us?

France can wait. we need to consolidate our new holdings and build up our Infrastructure & Military Capabilities. If we don't, we run the great risk of over extending ourselves and having some come and take our well gotten gains away from us and with relative ease. I'm not advocating beating our swords back into plowshares, but making more plowshares, so at some future date, we can beat them into swords.

Otto will get his and he'll be the one who makes the wrong move. Then Berlin wil become ours. It will be before the end of the Middle Ages, but it will come. He's afraid of us now, buthe won't be for too much longer.

E_T

	07-10-2002 08:49									#8
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a think a time of peace and regrouping is in order before the onset of the industrial age or at least until we can know how we fare with respect to saltpeter. And we might as well start assessing who we are going to have to fight for oil since the aztecs have beaten us to the american frontier. Perhaps there is a weaker neighbor with a likely location

	07-10-2002 08:54									#9
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Here is my current plan for the french
The color lines indicate movement path during the turn. They are in 5 turn cycles, the first is blue seocnd red and so on. I anticipate an 8 turn war.
Aggie

Attachment: french fry.jpg
This has been downloaded 183 time(s).

	07-10-2002 09:02									#10
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Some explanation is in order. The paths show thrust lines the intial thrust lines contain 5knights each, thought he 1st southerm one might contain 5knights+3longbowmen. A total of 20knight+3 longbowmen are involved, 15 knights will compose the northern force(3thrust lines) and the rest will form the southern force, The intial attacks in the south will be the longbowmen because in the mountains speed is useless so might as well use these units in mountains. After the fighting is done in the southunits will rush to attack Avignon in coordination with northern forces. A final thrus west to Grenoble will end the war(these forces will be the left over from the avignon attack, we will use the southernforces first. This war will accomplish 3 things
1) End france as a threat before they can get a Ga,
2) Get us desert land for oil
3) With good culture buildup could threaten russian city
Regardless after this war we will control the nech of our continent.
Aggie

	07-10-2002 09:50									#11
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Great to see the war academy so keen as to be planning the next skirmish, but..... isn't anyone else sick of it?

I'd love to see us stop and consolidate for a bit. Imagine, with the land we have, Marketplaces and Libraries in most of our cities would give us a great boost, and workers would greatly increase our production.

I too share the dream of taking the deserts and mountains near France, but they are worthless to us right now (unless we find Saltpeter there). i would rather we built up, and unleasehed with Cavalry down the line, once we have developed into a true superpower. Right now we are but Mongols, laying waste to vast areas without much to show for it at all. Let us stop living in shanties in the disease-ridden jungle and transform our nation.

War is good. War gets us lots of things, but we can only go on with the pitiful tech we have for so long. We are learning Education, soon Music Theory and others. Let us put these cultural developments to use to strengthen our cities' claim to fame. With better civilisation comes better ideas, and better weaponry.

Let us stop the wars. for the sake of future wars!

	07-10-2002 10:03									#12
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MWIA, thats the beauty of this plan for only the cost of a few more wc upgraded and the production of a few more wc(20 shields) we can have it all and this wouldn't be hard to pull off even in republic. So we could still build libaries cathedrals etc and still fight this war. After this I see no practical wars for a while. We already have 10knights and 5 wc's for the record.
Aggie

	07-10-2002 10:13									#13
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Ghengis & ET Thanks for the reminder I must have overlooked those remaining cities, and I'm sure we can all agree that they present little significant threat, if any.

AGGIE great map, a good strategy as well ; how many units do you expect to meet you once we cross into France? oops not to plan ahead TOO much..

MWIA homeland improvement should be first on the agenda of course, like I've mentioned in other posts, but maintaining a worthy fighting force and keeping our enemies (and potential enemies) in check will keep us on top.

	07-10-2002 10:18									#14
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Meshelic I am expected 2 pike in all cities except for the capital with 3. It is possible we will meet some spear and a handfull of sword, but those will be encountered and destroyed quickly. The is also A possibility of knights, howebver after the first cities fall france will have neither iron nor horses.
Aggie

	07-10-2002 10:19									#15
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Controlling the bottleneck of the continent where France now lies is a strategic move that would assure us dominance in the region, and would probably yield enough resources later to make it worth it in the end. By playing the right cards we could do it without blemishing our record with the other civs...

Speaking of other civs, what is the likelihood of the Germans taking a stance against us in the case of this hypothetical invasion?

	07-10-2002 10:20									#16
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Aside from finishing off the Americans, I agree that we should consolidate and build. Avignon is a nice target for the future, but I don't see any urgent need.

Looking farther ahead, both Germany and Greece offer tempting land. However, wars against either are not possible right now, and probably won't be until Cavalry.

	07-10-2002 11:02									#17
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As much of a Hawk as I've become over the last few months, I have to say that "eliminating an opponnet is a bad Idea. Generally speaking, all other civs are more advanced than we are and if we wipe them out, we can't get tech from them (or Lpt). I say a constant state of one or two city "whacks" would be best against alternating opponnets. As long as we don't break a treaty or violate a border before we attack, we don't loose any rep from war.

"Whack" a civ (I say the Aztec cities in Pina Colada ) for one, two or three cities, then sue for peace with tech and/or Lpt. Move troops into position for another "whack" and then do it when troops are ready (I think the German cities in Pina Colada would be perfect for this ).

If we whittle away at the other civs like this we will become so large that we will have improved our "infrastructure" as the bigger we get, the less we will need our big cities to build military units.

	07-10-2002 11:15									#18
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We must also remember that the AI gets a 20% production/commerce/sci bonus over us. Loosing a city hurts them moore then it hurts us (puls after a while of this "whacking" they will have very few cities and could not even come close to us with improvements or not. We will simple be to big for them to compete with )

	07-10-2002 11:24									#19
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War with France will give us great prizes but will also hold back Republic for at least 15 turns.
We need to race forward for America and grab whatever we can. Then we should turn our heads to peace, and Republic.
War mongers, think about it this way: with Republic we can make a lot more money, and more money means ability to rush more units and to finish the French in record time when we decide to.

	07-10-2002 11:40									#20
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Definetely America must be liberated from the Aztec

BUT

Arnelos brought up a good point about musketmen vs. knight / cavalry vs. musketmen ; if the French get that tech before us, then we may as well kiss that hugely strategic location goodbye. The only way to guarantee success is to attack in numbers soon

	07-10-2002 11:51									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber War with France will give us great prizes but will also hold back Republic for at least 15 turns. We need to race forward for America and grab whatever we can. Then we should turn our heads to peace, and Republic. War mongers, think about it this way: with Republic we can make a lot more money, and more money means ability to rush more units and to finish the French in record time when we decide to.

We have no marketplaces. No marketplaces = no republic . So discard republic until after we have the marketplaces.

War = Great Leaders, think of it...

We can war with france while building up the infrastructure but we have to keep good relationships and good reputation to avoid a massive alliance against us. Should this massive alliance form, we would be able to handle it, but it will just delay the infrastructure constructions.

Do you want your France with French fries?

	07-10-2002 13:45									#22
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I would like to repute the thought that the only reason we have had such military success is because we have been picking on "weak" civs. We have truly only fought three civs: the Americans, the French and the Persians (I don't count the Germans as it was so pathetic).

Of these three civs we only had an advantage over one of them, the Persians. They had no Iron and could not stand up to even our Swordmen at the time.

The other two (America and France), we fought on even ground.

America was fought with Archer stacks ( @ Unortho) and spearmen. We both had some of each. We won do to stragety and the fact that we had more.

France was fought with Archer stacks, Spearmen and Swordmen. Again, we both had some of each (hell, Rheims was taken back by a warrior). Again, we won do to stragety.

Both the French and American wars are examples of what I call "whacking a civ". We whacked them and they turned pathetic. We whack Greece, Germany, Aztec, English, Rome and Russia in the same mannor, and they all become pathetic. All of Abananaba becomes a mop up job.

	07-10-2002 16:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Speaking of other civs, what is the likelihood of the Germans taking a stance against us in the case of this hypothetical invasion?

Great question, Meshelic. If we do decide to proceed against the French, it seems to me we have to weigh the possibility of third party aggression, from either the Aztecs or the Germans. That scenario would make it impossible to do any substantial building (courthouses, marketplaces, cathedrals). We now have a vast and potentially rich hinterland, but we're not yet using it fully.

I'm a bit hesitant to plunge into the next phase of imperialist expansion. France looks tempting, and vulnerable. Can we take it while at the same time buttressing ourselves culturally and economically?
If the French campaign can be an isolated one, we should be able to put it together and execute pretty cheaply.
If we're not sure of this, however, then it becomes a serious proposition. Because we need to have a major building phase, including (IMO) palace/FP placement, a cathedral campaign, and a series of courthouse/marketplace rushes.
What do people think? Are we pretty confident we can hold Otto and Monty in check (via trade agreements and so on), while we take out another layer or two of pink territory?
Nothing should impede or further delay a substantial building campaign. :doitnow:

	07-10-2002 16:56									#24
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We definetely need the time to er-organize, we can't allow ourselves to be drawn to another war in the near future, we'll do better if we muster our city production towards marketplaces and courthouses, make lots of money with Republic, and attack in the window of Cavalry before Riflemen. We can get the Cav before france gets Nationality, and we'll have plenty of knights and money to upgrade them, then launch an invasion. For now, we must grab NY, and if we can boston too, by using the 4 WC we have south of boston to form a 'blockade' on the SE and south of Boston, if the Aztecs won't attack from the north, we might be able to get Boston before them, and if they get Boston, our blockade will slow their approach to New york (they'll have to go through hills and mountains) and we can have our 2 knights attack it in 3 turns. After that we should definitely stop the wars and consolidate for a while.

	07-10-2002 18:43									#25
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we need to know soon what is going on with saltpeter. we could easily be targeted by one of our AI neighbors simply because we have it in some lightly-defended location and they do not have it at all. Insuring we have it would allow us to delay a campaign against France because we could be sure of calvary when the time comes. Or conversely, we could be sure that France did and we didn't and that a pre-emptive strike would be in order to attain it. however, over 1000 lytons to purchase it is very high; have we considered all options for how to get it cheaply and with all possible speed?

	07-10-2002 20:39									#26
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Why are we considering attacking the French? They have no Techs to give in the negotiations.

Greece, Rome, and Germany are only ones with the techs we crave.

Lets see know. What was the Persian line at the negotiating table? Something like

It would be cheaper to crush you and take your stuff.

	07-10-2002 22:30									#27
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What's left of America is the higher priority.

Aggie, how many turns from now are you proposing the second French war?

And do you think we can implement the plan before the French get Musketters?

We must get Gunpowder this turn so we know who will have access to it with the tech and who who will still lack.

I'll only back the war as long as the French don't get Musketeers before we start. And if they get this before we take Tours, I'd be proposing sueing for peace.

	07-10-2002 22:38									#28
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Rome & Germany both have Gunpowder. We don't really want to fight them now even if after we buy this tech ASAP as superior numbers of Knights will be needed.

Greece can easily afford to bribe Rome and/or Germany into attacking us, so we shouldn't fight them either.

The obvious goal of the second French campaign is conquest, they can't even afford a decent price on the techs we have that they don't.

It will take a few turns for the Knights to get into position, which will reduce the inital war werrious.
If war wearrious becomes a problem during the war, we either switch to Monarchy for the remainder of the war or sue for peace depending upon if the French have Musketters or not.

	07-10-2002 22:58									#29
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We have a peace treaty signed with france from last turn chat, so the earliest the war can take place is 17 or so turns. If it is delayed long enough we could do the same thing with calvary. This attack would even give us slighlty better odds.
knight vs fortified pike is 4:3.75(1,.07:1)
Calvary vs forified musket is 6:5(1.2:1)
and I can just about guarentee we can have calvary before they have upgraded all pike to musket
Of course this depends on us and them having saltpeter
Obviously it is IMPERITVE that we get gunpower fast. so we can see it.
One thing to notice we will have to upgrade about 10 chariots to knights this will cost 1000 total but over 20 turns+ what we have that is less than 1/3 our budget and maybe we'll make some knights.
One thought I've had is this, we could make alliance with russia, why you ask well very simple. If we make alliance with russia 2 things can happen. The french might take that russian city and if the frence did get somebody else to help them it might be against the russians and with luck we could set off a southern war with rome and russia.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 07-10-2002 at 23:05

	08-10-2002 00:04									#30
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Well the good news is that in 17 turns war werrious wouldn't be a significant factor at the start of the war.

The bad news is that it's probable that the French will have Gun powder and if there's Saltpeter in their territroy they'll have some Musketeers because they'll have started to upgrade Pikemen.

If this takes place, Calvary will be needed. Yes, they have clear supproity over Musket Men and Musketeers. Nationalism will be right around the corner though, so we would need to act fast before we need to increase the army for expected losses to drafted Riflemen.

The ultimate show stoper though is when civs get Replaceable Parts (with access to Rubber). This makes wars futile until Mobile Warfare.