08-10-2002 22:33									#31
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So, Saint Marcus, you propose no solution to the mortar attack other than an Israel withdrawal from Gaza.

I assume you are not a hypocrite.

When the Serbs in Bosnia or the KLA in Kosovo attack UN forces, I assume your solution is the same, withdraw.

Ditto Afghanistan.

And, I assume, when the first Nazi shot at allied forces after WWII, we should have withdrawn from Germany.

Right?

	08-10-2002 22:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I agree with orange, che, Saint Marcus, GePap, and anyone who agrees with them that I left out

David, What are you agreeing with

1) Hamas has the right to kill Jews?
2) Hamas has the right to hide in civilian areas?
or
3) Israel's only solution to Hamas's attacks is to withdraw from Gaza?

What do you agree with?

	08-10-2002 22:39									#33
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I agree that Israeli military forces do NOT have the right to fire in crowded civilian areas to hit supposed criminals.

Make an arrest, charge the person, give them a trial.

That's what democracy is all about, so why doesn't Israel...a democracy...do this?

	08-10-2002 22:40									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey Chris 62, make sure you never stand near a ciminal, since unde your theory of right and wrong, it woud be utterly right for the police to kill you in killing the bad-guy. I mean, if you are innocent, what the hell are you doing near criminals. .

Since you win the prise for the most stupid answer, I'll tell you why you just put your head up your ass with your analogy.

When I support fully blowing up innocents and hide the killers among me, then your analogy would have an iota of merit, not until then.

That's what people like you NEVER get.

	08-10-2002 22:42									#35
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since when do all Palestinians support blowing up innocent Israelis and purposely hide the killers among themselves?

even those that do, how does that merit them being killed? If it were your child, wouldn't you try to protect them? Does that mean you should be put in the crosshairs?

	08-10-2002 22:45									#36
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Ned, I agree that:

"3) Israel's only solution to Hamas's attacks is to withdraw from Gaza?"

And also the West Bank and the Golan Heights, and to work to meet the legitimate demands and concerns of the Palestinians, let the Arabs who were forced back of Israel come back in, and things of that nature.

After this, if there is still terrorism, Israel has the right to defend itself. It does not have the right to occupy other people's land or to kill or detain innocents.

Of course, the simple solution is to go back 60 years and make sure Israel was never created. Since time travel is impossible, though...

	08-10-2002 22:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by orange since when do all Palestinians support blowing up innocent Israelis and purposely hide the killers among themselves? even those that do, how does that merit them being killed? If it were your child, wouldn't you try to protect them? Does that mean you should be put in the crosshairs?

When you and the other bleeding hearts that make up this august body whine and ***** at a dead Jew the way you do for a dead Palestinian is the day I will answer such a question, instead of looking down at the lot of you with the digust I feel for all hypocrits.

	08-10-2002 22:52									#38
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quote: So, Saint Marcus, you propose no solution to the mortar attack other than an Israel withdrawal from Gaza.

A. Withdrawal would be preferable
B. If they don't withdraw, don't use overkill to kill terrorists (kill one terrorist, kill 12 civilians in the proces, wound 100+ others)

quote: When the Serbs in Bosnia or the KLA in Kosovo attack UN forces, I assume your solution is the same, withdraw.

Hmm...the UN did withdraw from Srebrenica, did they not?

Anyway, it is a false comparison. the UN's presence in Bosnia was legal. Israel's occupation of the Gaza strip is not (check all the UN resolutions on the matter).

quote: Ditto Afghanistan.

Ditto what in Afghanistan?

Also, the UN approved I believe.

quote: And, I assume, when the first Nazi shot at allied forces after WWII, we should have withdrawn from Germany.

After WW2? I don't quite follow you.

quote: David, What are you agreeing with 1) Hamas has the right to kill Jews? 2) Hamas has the right to hide in civilian areas? or 3) Israel's only solution to Hamas's attacks is to withdraw from Gaza? What do you agree with?

He said he agrees with me

1. no
2. right? no. but it's a reality, and those people shouldn't have to suffer for a handful of extremists hiding there.
3. it's preferable. but if not, any israeli incursion should be proportional and ethically just. killing a dozen, and wounding a 100, including children, isn't proportional, and certainly not ethically just.

	08-10-2002 22:54									#39
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quote: When you and the other bleeding hearts that make up this august body whine and ***** at a dead Jew the way you do for a dead Palestinian is the day I will answer such a question, instead of looking down at the lot of you with the digust I feel for all hypocrits.

the bigot calls us hypocrits. strange world we live in.

	08-10-2002 23:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by orange even those that do, how does that merit them being killed? If it were your child, wouldn't you try to protect them? Does that mean you should be put in the crosshairs?

If you provide aid and comfort to terrorists, you are providing aid and comfort to war criminals. It has been a long established war crime for civilians to fire on the military. That's why when Belgian civilians fired on German forces in the First World War there were such severe reprecussions.

The justification for civilian protection is that they do not take an active part in the war. However, if they do, then they are legitimate targets. If they try to protect other civilians who are committing war crimes, then they are also legitimate targets.

However, killing people who were uninvolved is quite saddening. It's terrible that Hamas uses these people as human shields to fight behind.

	08-10-2002 23:02									#41
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This is actually an effective weapon against overpopulation, if it wasn't for the whining....

	08-10-2002 23:04									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Hmm...the UN did withdraw from Srebrenica, did they not?

Dutch cowards fled from Srebrenica, after helping the Serbs pick out people to murder. But yes, you're right, they did technically withdraw.

	08-10-2002 23:09									#43
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There are two things I can't stand in this world: prejudice against people of other cultures, and the filthy Dutch!

	08-10-2002 23:13									#44
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quote: Dutch cowards fled from Srebrenica, after helping the Serbs pick out people to murder. But yes, you're right, they did technically withdraw.

0.1/10

tasteless.

	08-10-2002 23:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 When you and the other bleeding hearts that make up this august body whine and ***** at a dead Jew the way you do for a dead Palestinian is the day I will answer such a question, instead of looking down at the lot of you with the digust I feel for all hypocrits.

I feel remorse for anyone who dies as a result of terrorism, and I resent the implication otherwise.

	08-10-2002 23:24									#46
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Well, SM and David, I think even the Israeli's would love to withdraw from the occupied territories in the context of peace agreement that included a guarantee against further terrorism. However, they actually did this, in connection with the multi-step Oslo accords. Their withdrawal was conditioned on an end to terrorism.

But it did not end, did it? It only got worse.

Even under your own logic and pre-conditions, Israel has a right to defend itself because it did withdraw and did turn security over to Arafat.

On the bit about WWII, clearly the four powers were a hostile occupying force in Germany after WWII. The question I had for you is whether the only solution to terrorist attacks on these occupying forces was their withdrawal from Germany?

If you respond once again that the four powers were a legitimate occupying force because Hitler was the aggressor, well then, under this same logic, Israel is a legitimate occupying force because the Arabs were the aggressors in '48 and in '67.

	08-10-2002 23:25									#47
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and you only dodge the question because you don't have an answer. Resorting to an attack using my so called 'lack of compassion' for Isrealis simply highlights your own immaturity on the matter.

	08-10-2002 23:27									#48
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the Palestinians have never been granted independence, that's the problem.

quote: On the bit about WWII, clearly the four powers were a hostile occupying force in Germany after WWII. The question I had for you is whether the only solution to terrorist attacks on these occupying forces was their withdrawal from Germany?

why? post WW2 Germany wanted foreign troops there. The PA does not want Israeli troops there. Comparison is invalid.

	08-10-2002 23:34									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus the bigot calls us hypocrits. strange world we live in.

Ha Ha Ha, the jew hater calls me a bigot!

It must kill you Hitler didn't finsih them off, eh Marky Mark?

After all, it's not like they are people, just Jews.

	08-10-2002 23:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by orange I feel remorse for anyone who dies as a result of terrorism, and I resent the implication otherwise.

Then stand up and be counted when Jews are killed.

When we see a suicide bomber, where is the 500 post thread condeming it?

Do I see you and so many of the same familiar names who love to bash Jews say a SINGLE word against it, out side of some sort of "they deserved it/stole the land" kind of post?

Marky Mark is the perfect example, he knows I have spoken out continually for a homeland and peace for Palestine, but here it doesn't suit his "dirty murdering jews" theme, so he calls me a bigot, a silly troll from a silly man.

Before long you will see the SAME Europeans (and a few Americans) post the same clap trap that basically says the Jews got what's comming to them.

The SAME F*CKING LINE THE NAZIS USED.

In fact, one swine here likes to call the Jews Nazis, and says they "play for sympathy" based on SIX MILLION OF THEM BEING EXTERMINATED BY PEOPLE OF HIS ILK.

But who cares, they are just Jews, not real humans, right?

	08-10-2002 23:47									#52
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^ See?

Perfect example of a small mind and his small troll exsposed.

Don't worry Marky, by tomorow your Jew hating pals will be all over this thread, with impassioned posts that basically all say they wish the Jews were dead.

	08-10-2002 23:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus the Palestinians have never been granted independence, that's the problem. why? post WW2 Germany wanted foreign troops there. The PA does not want Israeli troops there. Comparison is invalid.

All I can say to this is that our efforts at re-educating the Germans to love us have been highly successful.

	09-10-2002 00:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 A Hammas gunmen takes a pot-shot at an Israeli soldier and ducks into a crowd, hoping the return fire will hit a civilllian, and we are supposed to weep for the poor "innocents".

Since Chris already invoked Godwin:

quote: Originally posted by Chris 44 A Soviet partisan takes a pot-shot at a Wehrmacht soldier and ducks into a refugee crowd, hoping the return fire will hit a civilllian, and we are supposed to weep for the poor "innocents".

Hmmm, where have I seen that line before?

	09-10-2002 00:05									#55
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To bad I never said that, but you proved my point in spades, to wit:

"In fact, one swine here likes to call the Jews Nazis"

And we see a typical European post:

"Wehrmacht soldier" (IE a NAZI) in place of the Actual post: "Israeli soldier "

Coincedence?

No, I have just seen it too much on Apolyton.

	09-10-2002 00:09									#56
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You might want to add this Jaako, since I'm in no mood to mince words, your analogy is assinine, Soviet Partisans didn't fire from crowds, nor blow up German civilians as suicide bombers, nor burst into German towns and execute German children, the target for them was the Heer, never the civilian population.

Hammas is no Freedom fighter organization, all you do is prove my point, you support terror, under the guize of "freedom figther" in your half-assed example, and it disgusts me.

	09-10-2002 00:11									#57
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Boy, you sure have a rosy view of the Eastern Front...

Edit: and you sure toss those terrorist lover accusations around, doncha?

	09-10-2002 00:15									#58
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I'm very much against Arabs blowing themselves up in civilian areas...


however, if palestinians blow up an isreali military checkpoint, I think they're are doing the right thing (for as far as anyone can speak of right and wrong in this conflict, but if you want to fight, fight the soldiers, not the civilians. goes for both sides).

	09-10-2002 00:15									#59
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No, what I have is anger at the people here, it's wrong for Israel to kill civilians, but it kills me that the decendents of the Jew's murderers gleefully condemn them and cheer every time one of them are killed, when they know damn well the only reason Israel is in the Gaza strip and WB is to get out the killers of it's people.

But who cares, right?

Not like Jews are human.

	09-10-2002 00:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus 0.1/10 tasteless.

You're right. The Dutch cowards had French help.