09-10-2002 00:19									#61
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It's odd how I can argue for pages with the resident Israelis and yet realise we're both on the same side in the end.
But with you, I get hysterical accusations.

And to make it clear, I wasn't equating the Israelis to the nazis, I was comparing your callous statement about palestinian civilians to actual events in the WW2 Eastern Front.

	09-10-2002 00:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I'm very much against Arabs blowing themselves up in civilian areas...

Then why did you not start such a thread about the bus bombing that lead to this Mark?

quote: however, if palestinians blow up an isreali military checkpoint, I think they're are doing the right thing (for as far as anyone can speak of right and wrong in this conflict, but if you want to fight, fight the soldiers, not the civilians. goes for both sides).

Actually, if you subscribe to notions of decency, and the very laws and treaties that your nation and mine are made up of, you CANNOT support such an action, UNLESS the bomber is wearing a CLEARLY defined military uniform.
To dress as a civillan, even if you target soldiers, is morally and leagally wrong.
If you say it's right, then Israel has every right to kill em all and let god sort em out.

You can't have it both ways.

	09-10-2002 00:20									#63
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quote: You're right. The Dutch cowards had French help.

no, we didn't had any help

we called in airstrikes, the french and americans refused it. read the NIOD report. The Dutch governement is to blame. The UN is to blame. The French and American leadership is to blame. But not the ill-equiped dutch troops.

	09-10-2002 00:25									#64
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quote: Then why did you not start such a thread about the bus bombing that lead to this Mark?

I wasn't going to start this thread either, cause I thought someone else already started one. That's usually the case. I only started it later on the day when I still found nobody had started one.

quote: Actually, if you subscribe to notions of decency, and the very laws and treaties that your nation and mine are made up of, you CANNOT support such an action, UNLESS the bomber is wearing a CLEARLY defined military uniform. To dress as a civillan, even if you target soldiers, is morally and leagally wrong.

Coming from an American that's funny. Doesn't the CIA use hitmen to assasinate foreign (and their own) nationals? They aren't in uniform either, and they kill. How do you feel about that?

Also, Partistans in WW2 dressed in civilian clothes. Are they terrorists too? And how about WW2 resisitance? Were they also wrong in opposing the occupying force, and bombing their military checkpoints?

	09-10-2002 00:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It's odd how I can argue for pages with the resident Israelis and yet realise we're on the same side in the end. But with you, I get hysterical accusations.

Nothing hysterical, nor were there acusations, YOU inserted whermacht soldier for IDF soldier, whether you realize that or not.
The Jewish fellows here try to reason with you, and that's good, I'm as my Greek blood has always been, blunt and striaght foward, I'm not interested in reasoning with bigots (not saying you are, just the majority of the normal jew bashers here).

quote: And to make it clear, I wasn't equating the Israelis to the nazis, I was comparing your callous statement about palestinian civilians to actual events in the WW2 Eastern Front.

I know quite a bit about the Eastern front, my view is neither rosy nor innacurate.
Soviet partisans attacked Russian TRAITORS, not German civilians in Germany.
Russian Partisans blended in with villages, but DIDN'T fire from crowds nor use children as shields (it would have served them no purpose too, the Nazis would have killed them no matter in non-combatants were in the way).

The point is, the TWO AERN'T COMPARABLE, and it's disgusting to use any Nazi referance when speaking about Jews, it's a pity so few of you realize this.

	09-10-2002 00:28									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Doesn't the CIA use hitmen to assasinate foreign (and their own) nationals?

The CIA isn't in the assassination game anymore.

	09-10-2002 00:31									#67
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when did they stop?

	09-10-2002 00:37									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I wasn't going to start this thread either, cause I thought someone else already started one. That's usually the case. I only started it later on the day when I still found nobody had started one.

Interesting title you selected for it.

quote: Coming from an American that's funny. Doesn't the CIA use hitmen to assasinate foreign (and their own) nationals? They aren't in uniform either, and they kill. How do you feel about that?

It would be intesting if that were still done, by executive order of Bush Sr, this was no longer permitted by law, and I find the practise disgusting.

quote: Also, Partistans in WW2 dressed in civilian clothes. Are they terrorists too? And how about WW2 resisitance? Were they also wrong in opposing the occupying force, and bombing their military checkpoints?

First, this isn't WWII, we are speaking of the laws that are the foundation of the UN charter, but the killing of partisans NOT in uniform WAS NOT a war crime according to the Nurmemburg tribunal, AS LONG AS IT IS ESTABLISHED THAT THEY WERE GUILTY, that is to say, "Reprisals" are strickly illeagal, but under earlier Geneva and Hauge conventions partisans could be executed if they had no recognizable uniform.

Yes, the allies used Partisans, the USA, Britain, Russia, and France all used them, and they fought at their own risk, BUT this world view changed with the coming of the cold war and the UN.

Tell me Mark, do you believe in the rule of law for ALL or JUST Jews?

Put it another way, should not BOTH sides be held to the same standard?

That is currently NOT the case, the Jews are vilified, the Palestians are often made excuses for.

That's the trouble with morality, unless you apply it to both sides, it's meaningless, and it's why I loathe several of the more vehement Jew haters here, who hide behind the PC buzz word "anti-Zionist".

	09-10-2002 00:37									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus we called in airstrikes, the french and americans refused it. read the NIOD report.

On July 11, 1995, two Dutch F-16 struck Serb positions. The Serbs then responded with a threat to kill 30 soldiers that they had taken hostage if the strikes continued. The airstrikes stopped immediately.

Furthermore it was the French, not the Americans, that rejected a request for more extensive strikes before the Dutch planes were in the air.

	09-10-2002 00:40									#70
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Chris, there are numerous accounts of (Soviet) partisans firing from refugee crowds in the late war (yes, it likely included a lot of people who had cooperated with or plain hadn't opposed the Germans "enough", but that doesn't make them any less noncombatants), in order to provoke a violent response, thus undermining any support the Germans had left.
What I was driving at is that you seem to not care for these kinds of civilians, which is exactly the attitude even the most apolitical Wehrmacht formations had. And now take note, the big difference with the IDF is that they do care for those civilians, avoiding lethal force (whether the situation can be kept under control is another matter).

That is most certainly NOT equating the Israelis with the Nazis in any way.

	09-10-2002 00:44									#71
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I think if you read my latter points Jaako, my meaning became clear.

Answering the Jew haters the way they do the jews, as a show of contempt for this continous double standard they display at evey opprotunity.

And I still believe they will fill this thread with the same thing every ME thread sees, page after page of basically "the jews stole the land/got what they deserved/have only themselves to blame", it happens EVERY TIME.

If I made even ONE of them think about it, it was worth it, but somehow I doubt it.

	09-10-2002 00:49									#72
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We join Chris 62 in an attempt to fish his way out of an unfounded attack...let's watch and see how it goes...

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Then stand up and be counted when Jews are killed. When we see a suicide bomber, where is the 500 post thread condeming it?

I rarely check the news sites myself, I respond to threads. Stand up and be counted? What on earth are you talking about? I'm just as upset at a terrattack against Israelis as I am when there's one against Palestinians, and just as upset as when there's one against Americans, French, Germans, Japanese...it doesn't ****ing matter. They're innocent people. That's the point.

It's just WORSE when it's STATE SPONSORED terrorism. Especially from a so called Democracy.

quote: Do I see you and so many of the same familiar names who love to bash Jews say a SINGLE word against it, out side of some sort of "they deserved it/stole the land" kind of post?

Bear with me Chris...I'm going to use one very big word, and one very small word to express my feelings on this snippit....

Unsubstantiated crap.

When it comes to terrattacks, I'm against them no matter who's doing the shooting.

quote: Marky Mark is the perfect example, he knows I have spoken out continually for a homeland and peace for Palestine, but here it doesn't suit his "dirty murdering jews" theme, so he calls me a bigot, a silly troll from a silly man.

This isn't about Mark...for the moment you've insulted MY character, and without so much as a fingerpoint to do so.

You lump me in with a bunch of so called 'jew haters' just because I'm pro-Palestine. That doesn't mean I support palestinian terrorism.

While we're on the subject, you fascist asshole, you have yet to say ONE WORD in this thread expressing sympathy for anyone killed.

And what's worse, your VERY FIRST POST expresses that you think more could have/should have been killed. You seem, dare I say it, upset that more didn't perish.

quote: Before long you will see the SAME Europeans (and a few Americans) post the same clap trap that basically says the Jews got what's comming to them.

I don't say that, I dont' believe anyone else does. Grow up. Distinguish between talks of terrorism and talks of Israeli soverignty.

	09-10-2002 00:52									#73
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Why don't you sum it up for me Chris?
Is it ok to shoot a crowd of civilians where gunmen are hiding? Was it ok for the Nazis? Would it be ok if the Israelis were to do it?

	09-10-2002 00:53									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 "Wehrmacht soldier" (IE a NAZI)

Even a historical novice knows this is blatantly not true. Being a Wehrmacht soldier did not make one a Nazi, anymore than being a soldier in the U.S. Army today makes one a Republican.

	09-10-2002 01:02									#75
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quote: Originally posted by orange I don't say that, I dont' believe anyone else does.

There are one or two conspicuous examples, but they are more of an exception to a general rule.

	09-10-2002 01:05									#76
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and Eli makes it even for team Israel, i'm sure

It is sad that some people think like that, but I don't.

	09-10-2002 01:09									#77
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chris, you were born 20 years too late. In the 80's it was politically correct to equate pro-palestinians with anti-semitic neonazi jewhating pedophilic cannibals.

But the world grew up. Isn't it time you did too?

A nation should be judged based on the actions it undertakes, not the genetic makeup of the inhabitants. Based on those criteria, Israel is judged and found wanting.

	09-10-2002 01:11									#78
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Speak of the devil...

	09-10-2002 01:14									#79
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That said, I have to applaud Sharon. His plan worked perfectly, once again. Kill a bunch of palestinians, derail the peace process.

Is anyone naive enough to think that this happened the same day Solana visited was a coincidence?

	09-10-2002 01:25									#80
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quote: Originally posted by orange We join Chris 62 in an attempt to fish his way out of an unfounded attack...let's watch and see how it goes...

Still smarting over your rebuff over your previous lack of good judgement else where I see.

Do your self a favor boy, you were wrong once, don't continue it here.

quote: I rarely check the news sites myself, I respond to threads. Stand up and be counted? What on earth are you talking about? I'm just as upset at a terrattack against Israelis as I am when there's one against Palestinians, and just as upset as when there's one against Americans, French, Germans, Japanese...it doesn't ****ing matter. They're innocent people. That's the point.

Then say it for ALL.

quote: It's just WORSE when it's STATE SPONSORED terrorism. Especially from a so called Democracy.

It seems you have an interesting defintion of terrorism.

quote: Bear with me Chris...I'm going to use one very big word, and one very small word to express my feelings on this snippit....

That's bare, half-wit, if you want to pretend to an education, you will have to try harder.

quote: Unsubstantiated crap. When it comes to terrattacks, I'm against them no matter who's doing the shooting.

Very good, as well you should be.

quote: This isn't about Mark...for the moment you've insulted MY character, and without so much as a fingerpoint to do so. You lump me in with a bunch of so called 'jew haters' just because I'm pro-Palestine. That doesn't mean I support palestinian terrorism.

No, you just don't have a problem with it.
Same old same old, it the shoe fits, wear it.

quote: While we're on the subject, you fascist asshole, you have yet to say ONE WORD in this thread expressing sympathy for anyone killed.

Oh, so now I'm a facist (that's how you spell it, BTW), your true colors seem to be showing through.
Shouldn't you be banned for such a comment?
On your own site you would, little deputy dawg.

quote: And what's worse, your VERY FIRST POST expresses that you think more could have/should have been killed. You seem, dare I say it, upset that more didn't perish.

What a lovely display of political correctness.
Of course, I was entirly serious, you could tell from the fair and balenced thread title.
Remember what I told you about lack of judgement reguarding intent?
You just showed it again.

quote: I don't say that, I dont' believe anyone else does. Grow up. Distinguish between talks of terrorism and talks of Israeli soverignty.

The ultimate weapon of the bigot is to claim they can't tell right from wrong.
You failed that little test.
Your slip is showing sweety, that's what taking a stand means, it's not about spouting PC crap like you just attempted, it's about right and wrong.

	09-10-2002 01:27									#81
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Ya know, I bet these ME threads could be a lot more intellectually stimulating and enlightening to people who are new to the issues if it weren't for the hysterical, frothing blanket of wild accusations, assertions and outright ridiculousness coming from some people.

However, as it is now, people like me get turned off by the unintelligent rantings and end up not caring a bit for either side.

Hmm, perhaps that's their tactic though, as the disinterest of the world will aide the side that is abusing its power over a weaker party.

	09-10-2002 01:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu chris, you were born 20 years too late. In the 80's it was politically correct to equate pro-palestinians with anti-semitic neonazi jewhating pedophilic cannibals.

Old habits for you die hard, eh?

quote: But the world grew up. Isn't it time you did too?

HA HA HA HA
You never dispoint, your like clockwork!

quote: A nation should be judged based on the actions it undertakes, not the genetic makeup of the inhabitants. Based on those criteria, Israel is judged and found wanting.

By that criteria, we should make The Netherlands a radioactive crater.

quote: That said, I have to applaud Sharon. His plan worked perfectly, once again. Kill a bunch of palestinians, derail the peace process. Is anyone naive enough to think that this happened the same day Solana visited was a coincidence?

Now were rolling....

	09-10-2002 01:31									#83
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quote: That is currently NOT the case, the Jews are vilified, the Palestians are often made excuses for.

Really? How many people condone palestinian terrorist attacks? I certainly don't.

When Palestinians kill Israeli soldiers, I have no problem with it. When Israelis kill Palestinian terrorists, I have no problem with it.

I do have a problem with both sides killing civilians to achieve their goals.

And to think of it, I do hold Israel to a different standard than Palestine. Cause they're Jews? Far from it. Cause I love Arabs? Hardly. Only cause Israel claims to be a democracy, dedicated to freedom and peace. The PA is not democratic, far from it. I do believe Democracies in this world have to be held to a higher standard. If not, then they are no better than dictatorships they oppose.

and I like to point you at this comment, on your behaviour in this thread: "While we're on the subject, you fascist *******, you have yet to say ONE WORD in this thread expressing sympathy for anyone killed."

	09-10-2002 01:33									#84
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quote: you could tell from the fair and balenced thread title.

12-14 people died, 100-150 wounded. and that is not a bloodbath????

Also, I copied the title from newspapers here.

	09-10-2002 01:34									#85
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Don't like having the tables turned Marky?

Don't worry, your best weapon is here, watch as this statement becomes dust:
"Really? How many people condone palestinian terrorist attacks? I certainly don't."

Somebody here condons them rather forcefully.

	09-10-2002 01:35									#86
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quote: Oh, so now I'm a facist (that's how you spell it, BTW)

You're not only a fascist, you're a stupid one at that.

Facist is not a word

Fascist is.

Fas·cist [ fáshist ] (plural Fas·cists)
noun

1. supporter of Fascism in Italy: somebody who belonged to Benito Mussolini’s party or who supported Fascism in Italy between 1922 and 1943

2. supporter of fascism: somebody who supports or advocates a system of government characterized by dictatorship, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

[Early 20th century. Via Italian Fascista , from fascio group, bundle, from, ultimately, Latin fascis (see fasces).]

	09-10-2002 01:36									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus 12-14 people died, 100-150 wounded. and that is not a bloodbath???? Also, I copied the title from newspapers here.

Here, as in "The Netherlands" Marky?

Now there's a patern.

	09-10-2002 01:36									#88
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quote: Somebody here condons them rather forcefully.

yes, when attacking soldiers specifically, not when targetting civilians. I don't call attacking enemy soldiers an act of terrorism. The attack on "enemy" civilians is however, and I don't condone it.

	09-10-2002 01:38									#89
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quote: Here, as in "The Netherlands" Marky? Now there's a patern.

dodging the issue. cheap

	09-10-2002 01:39									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus You're not only a fascist, you're a stupid one at that.

Trying to be insulting, you pedantic little troll?
Facist is the correct English spelling, you misguided yougster.

Fascist is INCORRECT in English, the language we are using here!