09-10-2002 23:31									#61
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the rest of uerope could build them within a year (if they have not already)

I count that as having them

Jon Miller

	09-10-2002 23:35									#62
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Support for this war will continue to drop. Personally, I've been against it from the beginning, so I can't really answer your question as to whether this CIA report will change any (American) minds.

A lot of the problem is that a scary number of people buy into the "he has WoMD, so we gotta go get him!" The problem with that argument, of course, is that a LOT of countries have WoMD, including ourselves. We also remain the only nation to ever use nukes on other people. But the pro-war Americans I've talked to don't give a good goddamn about that, and their fall-back argument is that Saddam is evil.

If we took the money that would be used for this Iraq war and dumped into Afganistan and Pakistan, we might manage to really hurt Al-Quaida and other groups that are out for our blood. But we won't.

-Arrian

	09-10-2002 23:36									#63
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There's gonna be the use of those NBC weapons, to some extent, anyway. The fragmentation of husseins forces during the conflict is bound to create it.

	09-10-2002 23:37									#64
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"Iraq not a threat to U.S. unless provoked."

That's exactly how I feel, in reverse.

	09-10-2002 23:38									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The problem with that argument, of course, is that a LOT of countries have WoMD, including ourselves. We also remain the only nation to ever use nukes on other people. -Arrian

how is that a problem with that argument at all?

in my mind that is a good reason to not let those nations which have reason to be against us to have WoMD (I am speaking from a US perspective)

if I was in europe I would not give a rat's ass

Jon Miller

	09-10-2002 23:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Wrong again DD. Leftism has no stand anywhere in this world. It is the fungus and brings out the worst in the world.

My mistake.
The supreme logic of that statement proves me wrong.

	09-10-2002 23:48									#67
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quote: in my mind that is a good reason to not let those nations which have reason to be against us to have WoMD

What about China?
Pakistan? (say fundies take over)
North Korea?

	09-10-2002 23:51									#68
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JM,

Well, the inherent problem I thought would be obvious is the blatant hypocrisy of it.

Beyond that, however, in order to say "only we can have nukes!" we would have to do an awful lot of fighting. China, for instance, won't just roll over and give up their nukes. Nor will Russia, or any nuclear power for that matter. So we have to beat the nukes (or bio/chem) out of them, or maybe bribe them into giving them up (North Korea?).

We can do this to Iraq, but not to everyone. We could do it to Israel, but won't.

If the principle is "any nation that has WoMD and is anti-US and therefore might use them on us or give them to terrorists to use on us must be relieved of those WoMDs" then like I said... we'll have to do a lot of fighting.

-Arrian

	09-10-2002 23:59									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus What about China? Pakistan? (say fundies take over) North Korea?

I think we shold move against those as well (not always in the same way as against Iraq though)

Jon Miller

	10-10-2002 00:01									#70
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it is not hypocritic since I think we would go against China if it was at all feasible

and we are going against the other nations which are anti US and have WoMD

so it is not hypocritical at all (don't blame us for not taking on a country that we cannot currently beat)0

Jon Miller

	10-10-2002 00:02									#71
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As a follow-up to my last post, I see WoMDs as the real world version of Pandora's Box. The Box is open folks, and no matter how hard we try, we're not gonna close it again.

JM, did you see the articles recently about the US supplying Iraq with the germs they used for their bioweapons? The Iraqis claimed to need the stuff for public help purposes and got them via our civilian facilities like the CDC. Like I said - Pandora's Box.

-Arrian

	10-10-2002 00:04									#72
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so we should support everyone having WoMD since if we do nothing they can get them?

you make no sense

Jon Miller

	10-10-2002 00:08									#73
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Hmm, allow me to try again:

I don't believe we have the right to decide who has WoMD and who doesn't. Beyond that, I believe that any attempt to do so will fail.

-Arrian

	10-10-2002 00:11									#74
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I don't know about right

reality suggests that it would be best that none but us had any

and if not that, than none of those who dislike us have any

I am just thinking about saving lives here

Jon Miller

	10-10-2002 00:12									#75
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"Although we think the chances of Saddam initiating a WMD (weapons of mass destruction) attack at this moment are low -- in part because it would constitute an admission that he possesses WMD -- there is no question that the likelihood of Saddam using WMD against the United States or our allies in the region for blackmail, deterrence, or otherwise grows as his arsenal continues to build," Tenet said.

I think this passage in the article is the most pertinent Boris.

I don't recall the Bush administration declaring that any nation with WMD would be invaded, that is just a common scare tactic fron the anti-Bush crowd.

Let me add that in NO US WAR were losses "popular", so saying people wouldn't support such a war is to only state the obvious, nobody supports seeing our soldiers dead.

I really don't think more need be said, that paragraph from your article pretty much sums up the reason for the Iraq war, and pretty much nullifies the "we are in no danger" opinion.

	10-10-2002 00:14									#76
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outside of executing a murderer I cannot be sure that he will never murder again

that doesn't mean that I let all murders go free since some will escape

no, I try to keep them from escaping as much as possible and try to capture those that do

and those that do get loose, I hope won't cause anybody anymore damage (but I have done all I can)

Jon Miller
(imagine Rwanda with bomb, or Serbia)

	10-10-2002 00:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 "Although we think the chances of Saddam initiating a WMD (weapons of mass destruction) attack at this moment are low -- in part because it would constitute an admission that he possesses WMD -- there is no question that the likelihood of Saddam using WMD against the United States or our allies in the region for blackmail, deterrence, or otherwise grows as his arsenal continues to build," Tenet said. I think this passage in the article is the most pertinent Boris. I don't recall the Bush administration declaring that any nation with WMD would be invaded, that is just a common scare tactic fron the anti-Bush crowd. Let me add that in NO US WAR were losses "popular", so saying people wouldn't support such a war is to only state the obvious, nobody supports seeing our soldiers dead. I really don't think more need be said, that paragraph from your article pretty much sums up the reason for the Iraq war, and pretty much nullifies the "we are in no danger" opinion.

hmm, I am bavk completely in favor of war again (I never read the article, just read peoples posts about it)

Jon Miller

	10-10-2002 00:18									#78
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They may be right Jon, but these days, I don't believe "wait and see" as a viable or smart option.

	10-10-2002 00:23									#79
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There is another serious problem with the pro-war argument:

It assumes that Saddam Hussein is, in fact, a lunatic.

If he used a WoMD on the US, or gave one to terrorists and was found out, I have very little doubt that we'd turn Iraq into a sheet of glass. It's this little thing called "Mutually Assured Destruction."

We know that a terrorist doesn't care about such things - and the terrorists are the ones that we should be worried about. But the leader of a country, bloodthirsty dictator though he may be, has something to lose.

-Arrian

"I'm not afraid of the man who wants 20 nuclear warheads. I'm terrified of the man who only wants 1." - The Peacemaker - an otherwise crappy movie

	10-10-2002 00:28									#80
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isn't that from The Sum of All Fears?

	10-10-2002 00:30									#81
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Yes.

	10-10-2002 00:31									#82
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Nope, it's The Peacemaker (George Clooney and Nicole Kidman). I've never seen The Sum of All Fears, which apparently in no way resembles the book bearing the same name, which I have read.

-Arrian

	10-10-2002 00:32									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Iraq is against us therefore Iraq is more of a danger than Pakistan (who is not officially against us) Jon Miller

Saudi Arabia is theoretically an ally. They have been funding an organization which has been at war with the US since 1993. Iraq has left us alone. Our allies have attacked us. Our allies are far more dangerous to us than our enemies.

	10-10-2002 00:40									#84
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I'd just like to point out that the premise of this article is saying the same thing I've been saying for weeks - that Iraq is not a threat to the US, unless we provoke them.

Yes, I grant you that means Iraq could be a potential threat to US soldiers if we send US soldiers to invade Iraq, but it is nonsensical to say we need to send US soldiers to Iraq in order to prevent that

	10-10-2002 00:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian There is another serious problem with the pro-war argument: It assumes that Saddam Hussein is, in fact, a lunatic.

There is a question of whether he's a lunatic, yes, but consider this:
He has TWICE attacked neibhoring states, and has used Mustard gas on rebels in his own nation, is an active funder of known a terrorist organization (Hammas, it's irrelivant of your stance on Israel/Palestine, they are a terror group, I think we all agree on that).
During the Gulf war he lobbed missiles on Israel, which wasn't part of the forces arrayed against him.
To sum up, two offensive wars of conquest (both failed) and crimes against humanity.
I believe that qaulifies as a lunatic.

quote: If he used a WoMD on the US, or gave one to terrorists and was found out, I have very little doubt that we'd turn Iraq into a sheet of glass. It's this little thing called "Mutually Assured Destruction."

I cannot disagree more strongly.
To destroy Baghdad or any city in Iraq with Nuclear weapons, even if Saddam was behind it, would be a crime against humanity.
All it would do is provide the cause that many people here and elsewhere fear is lacking.
I WILL NEVER support a nuclear responce to a terror attck.

quote: We know that a terrorist doesn't care about such things - and the terrorists are the ones that we should be worried about. But the leader of a country, bloodthirsty dictator though he may be, has something to lose.

That's assuming he's rational, and truly believes he's in danger.
We have been yelling at him for 11 years, I think he views the west as full of hot air.

	10-10-2002 00:44									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 During the Gulf war he lobbed missiles on Israel, which wasn't part of the forces arrayed against him.

That actually would have been a smart tactic if Israel had retaliated against the assault because it would have fractured the coalition against him.

	10-10-2002 00:45									#87
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you're talking like the US cares about commiting warcrimes or not.

	10-10-2002 00:46									#88
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quote: To destroy Baghdad or any city in Iraq with Nuclear weapons, even if Saddam was behind it, would be a crime against humanity.

Ah, so you finally agree with me WRT Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Excellent

quote: He has TWICE attacked neibhoring states, and has used Mustard gas on rebels in his own nation, is an active funder of known a terrorist organization (Hammas, it's irrelivant of your stance on Israel/Palestine, they are a terror group, I think we all agree on that). During the Gulf war he lobbed missiles on Israel, which wasn't part of the forces arrayed against him. To sum up, two offensive wars of conquest (both failed) and crimes against humanity.

OK, but what about this:
The US has attacked neighboring and non-neighboring states on many occasions (in the Western Hemisphere alone, we've attacked Canada, Mexico, Grenada, Nicaragua, Panama, and Spain).
The US, during the Cold War, tested various chemical weapons on US soil, affecting several thousand US soldiers and civilians, according to recently declassified documents.
The US has funded various organizations in the past as well, including Saddam's regime, the Mudjahedin who became the Taliban, and various other militaristic anti-democracy forces around the world.
And, the kicker, we used both atomic weapons and napalm against Japanese civilians.
To sum up, countless offensive wars and crimes against humanity.

	10-10-2002 00:48									#89
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ah, so you finally agree with me WRT Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Excellent

No, I don't Floydy.

	10-10-2002 00:49									#90
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quote: No, I don't Floydy.

Hmm, then I'm afraid I don't see how you can oppose destroying Baghdad if Iraq uses WoMD's against us first