09-10-2002 23:50									#1
	Do we want GA now poll(Official) Got spare money?

Do we want a Golden Age during the American War or a Golden Age later.
Aggie

	09-10-2002 23:58									#2
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Technically... we're not at war (yet). Your poll should be: "Do we want one ASAP or later".

	10-10-2002 00:45									#3
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Actually, Aggie's wording is better as it allows the option of starting the Golden Age for not only the beginning of the campaign, but also at the end of the campaign.

Edit addition:

(This wording would clearly allow for a vote on should we have the Golden Age during the war with the French , English or latter without being the repoll a wording like ASAP would be.)

Last edited by joncnunn on 10-10-2002 at 01:25

	10-10-2002 00:48									#4
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I vote No

I rather expand our infrastructure through our own development and not through a GA. I don't think it will help much right now. Plus, we might need the GA for a major conflict.

	10-10-2002 01:01									#5
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No GA for now, i explained myself in the discussion thread-
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/show...&threadid=64105

	10-10-2002 01:20									#6
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Reasons for my Yes vote on in the discussion thread above, but the summary is that:

1. War Chariots become weaker over time.
2. Inferstructure is a moving target.

Not quite as clear is that I prefer the Golden Age to start as the American war is ending instead of at it's beginning (a difference of one or two turns which would allow the most critical buildings to be rushed prior to it starting.)

The primary effect of delaying a golden age 20+ turns over this period is that our science research stays non-existant, and we may be beat out even to the Printing Press. The secondary effects is that our inferstructure takes longer to build (especally Forbidden Palace)

	10-10-2002 01:24									#7
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I have to agree with the consensus here. Our cities just aren't ready to give us the boost a GA would allow us.

	10-10-2002 01:28									#8
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For all of you people voting No: Are in favor of a war with France to get us a GA at the magical GA perfection moment in the vague future?

Because if you're not in favor of war, then you're not in favor of delaying our GA for some point after America. GA's are started during wars. We're foolish if we think we're going to build Hoover's before anyone without a GL, and GLs come from wars, too.

If this vote results in a NO vote, it gives the government carte blanche to declare war on France at any point beyond the 20 turns we negotiated with them for peace to have a Golden Age. It assumes that said war won't be more than 5 turns, and that the French won't have Musketeers to start up their own GA, and that we can beat them anyhow with War Chariots.

That is, if anyone would ever agree that any time is the right time for a GA. *sigh*

--Togas

	10-10-2002 01:35									#9
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Togas- we can always have our WC's attack some of france's warriors, that would give us the desired GA, and if we have 20 turns until the war, we should be able to finish it quickly enough, while still greatly improving the infrastructure, in any case, we shouldn't have a GA now, because it won't be too hard to spark it some time later (like in a war with france) and right now is really not the right time- we havn't even seriously started building the improvements.

	10-10-2002 01:45									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Togas If this vote results in a NO vote, it gives the government carte blanche to declare war on France at any point beyond the 20 turns we negotiated with them for peace to have a Golden Age. It assumes that said war won't be more than 5 turns, and that the French won't have Musketeers to start up their own GA, and that we can beat them anyhow with War Chariots.

It does nothing of the sort. The government would still, as required by the CoL, have to conduct an official poll on declaring war against France in order to have authorization to do so. The people voting no on this vote would then be able to vote no on that one. While that would certainly FURTHER delay our GA, there may be people who want to do that.

Though I'm not one of them, I can certainly see why many would support such a plan.

	10-10-2002 01:55									#11
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Why don't we start a similar official poll for switching to Republic this turn?
I have calculated that under Republic, our income would rise to approximately 155 gpt. Also, no cities will go into disorder, and since we have so many luxuries and we're going to build marketplaces in our major cities as preparation for the GA, we shouldn't expect civil disorder in the foreseeable future either.
The only exception to this is the towns on Uber Isle. If we rush the temples on Uber Isle this turn and keep the population below 3 until we can connect them to the trade network we should be fine.
Can any of the ministers start an official poll on that?

	10-10-2002 02:07									#12
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Shiber I don't know who can start a government change poll. Thats why i haven't done it yet, but one word of caution I believe the 3week period would apply if defeated. Still I think anyone could start one if they think there is the 2/3 required to pass.
Aggie

	10-10-2002 02:19									#13
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I remember voting in a poll to switch to Republic after the war with Persia was done recently which the Pro-Republic forces won. (It may have been an unoffical one though.)

It started a couple of days before the poll on war with America.

Edit: Here's the link to that poll

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...04&pagenumber=3

Last edited by joncnunn on 10-10-2002 at 02:30

	10-10-2002 02:25									#14
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Zeit, the problem with war with France in 20 turns is that I'm not sure a war with France will be short enough to avoid war werriousness which we will want to avoid during the Golden Age more than any other time frame.

For anybody wishing to attack England in 20 turns instead, my objection is the same.

	10-10-2002 02:29									#15
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Under Republic war weariness isn't so bad. In any case, we'll have marketplaces in our crowded cities by then and with so many luxuries (5 luxuries produce 9 happy faces after marketplace) we won't have to worry about war weariness from 5 turns of war.

	10-10-2002 02:32									#16
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What's to guartine a war with France won't drag on for 20 turns?

	10-10-2002 02:59									#17
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It is foolish to wait any longer for a GA.

As time goes on, our WC will lose their effectiveness. Then a GA will become very difficult for us. We are pulling in 130+ LPT at the moment. A Golden Age will substantially increase this amount of LPT we pull in.

Right now we can take advantage of increased income as well as increased production (so we don't have to worry about rushing buildings).

Switch to republic, once we get republic, attack America. I'll be very disappointed if we don't take advantage of this opportunity.

What is to say France won't have gun powder in 20 or less turns? Our WCs will be very ineffective by then.

We need to do it now.

(Interesting to note, I'm currently in the library at my college and listening to the girls across from me talk on porn channels. It's definitely hard to be serious about the affairs of our nation when these girls are whispering "OH MY GOD, HE'S LOADIN UP HIS WEBCAM!!")

	10-10-2002 03:04									#18
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At the moment, a GA through America is about convenience. I think Donegeal's "whack" strategy can give us a GA at our choosing.

	10-10-2002 03:11									#19
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Yes Mr.Orange, you're right. And again, about the WC being ineffective, well the france have warriors, and we can easily pick one warrior with a WC, at our leisure. The war can be made short if we strike hard and fast, and Aggie proved that he can do that, for now, let us prepare for this GA.

	10-10-2002 03:13									#20
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Looking at the prelimary results of the Palace poll and assuming the pair in the leads wins.

I won't be supporting a war against France next, we'll flip the French city next to Timeline anyway.

Instead we'll be needing to annex the following:

1. England (except for lone city in Aztec land) followed by eastern third of Germany to secure that site.

2. Border Greek cities near Timeline. (Note that the French city boarding Timeline will culture flip to us anyway.)

	10-10-2002 03:14									#21
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I voted no, Id at least like to see our GA be during a republic or democracy. Ideally, Id like to see us with marketplaces & libraries and working on banks/universities (not built, being built).

	10-10-2002 03:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The government would still, as required by the CoL, have to conduct an official poll on declaring war against France in order to have authorization to do so. The people voting no on this vote would then be able to vote no on that one. While that would certainly FURTHER delay our GA, there may be people who want to do that. Though I'm not one of them, I can certainly see why many would support such a plan.

This goes right to heart of my concern: The builders don't want a GA now, but they also don't want a war later. You can't have it both ways.

Pick one. Make your choice. Either GA now and peace and prosperity, or GA later through yet another war. Understand and be able to live with the logical consequences of your choice.

--Togas

	10-10-2002 03:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Yes Mr.Orange, you're right. And again, about the WC being ineffective, well the france have warriors, and we can easily pick one warrior with a WC, at our leisure. The war can be made short if we strike hard and fast, and Aggie proved that he can do that, for now, let us prepare for this GA.

The problem is that no one seems to be taking into account the fact that France might not have warriors by the time we attack them. The could possibly have gun powder by way of another nation. It isn't much of a deal for them to upgrade their units.

Even our "pruning" strategy is falliable. The longer we wait, the less effective our WCs will be at being succesful.

	10-10-2002 03:54									#24
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banana option? Ok. Add one banana.

	10-10-2002 03:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Togas This goes right to heart of my concern: The builders don't want a GA now, but they also don't want a war later. You can't have it both ways. Pick one. Make your choice. Either GA now and peace and prosperity, or GA later through yet another war. Understand and be able to live with the logical consequences of your choice. --Togas

Togas,

As I said, I'm not one of them, but I can see where they're coming from... many of them honestly believe that we can trigger the GA with Hoover Dam or Manhattan Project. I happen to believe this is risky and we should do it now, but because these are possibilities, I can understand why many people feel the risk is worth it.

	10-10-2002 07:32									#26
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If we want to become the Dominate Power on the Continant, then we NEED the GA NOW!!! Yes, our Infrastructure/City improvements are lacking, but that's because of a glorious war against Persia. We are at the point where buying Technology is Prohibative and would cripple our economy. We need a really big boost and this will be it.

As it currently stands, we would NOT beable to even think about building a Wonder in this Age. So, will we be able to get one in the next age? Not if we don't have the GA now.

We can begin the slow climb at building our capability to compete with the other Civs (the one that should have been started Two Months ago) or we can have a faster boost that will help remedy our current shortfall.

We just had an Emergency Cabinet Meeting concerning dealing with the possible loss of the Spices (and the Staining of our Reputation from it). Some of us want to wait 20 turns and use our WC's on France to get our GA then, but then we need to remember a few things first:

1) We will be renegotiating out Dye trade with France in 3 turns (520 AD). Do we not sell them our Dyes, so that we won't have to wait the additional 20 turns for that deal to expire?

2) We will be renegotiating out Wine trade with France in 15 turns (640 AD). Do we not sell them our Wines, so that we won't have to wait the additional 20 turns for that deal to expire?

Are we willing to lose the income that these deals might generate so that we can get a GA at the 'Perfect time"? We have an opportunity NOW to get a GA, without any reputaion hits, without any income losses and without any significant War Weiriness from the conflict. In 20 turns or so, we'll have a greater population and will have to deal with the problem then.

I say GA NOW is the best route for our nation.

	10-10-2002 20:19									#27
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The deals with the France is another reason that France shouldn't be on our immedate list.

England & Germany are the primary threats to the Forbidden Palace / Palace city pair leading in the polls.

	11-10-2002 03:45									#28
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How long does this poll last?

	11-10-2002 05:23									#29
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Good point Kloreep, this poll has no time listed, it will not be valid if pressed. Aggie, I suggest you read the CoL, and redo this so it is not contested.

Togas,
Many Builders, like myself and Arnelos, are for a GA now, so I'm not sure why you specify builders against GA. Perhaps its the Hawks you meant to say. Though, I thank you for not blaming the DIA for the way this poll is shaping up, fortunately this poll would be found invalid if presented to the court.

To all,
As an ex-Justice of the Court, my services are available for legal consultation and/or legal representation.

	11-10-2002 05:57									#30
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Hmm... well the court hasn't had any good cases in awhile. . . .