10-10-2002 07:33									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd They are not likely to recognize the concept of self-evident natural rights,

Because there is no such thing.

	10-10-2002 07:34									#32
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I think you are largely correct. Our system right now seems to try and distribute power, but the legislative branch seems to fall more and more under the sway of the executive branch, when in fact it's supposed to keep it's power in check.

That's what's wrong with our government. That, and Bush seems to be power-mad.

	10-10-2002 07:38									#33
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quote: Because there is no such thing.

Whatever.

franky,

Yes, and also the Judicial Branch seems to be falling under Executive Branch influence as well.

	10-10-2002 07:40									#34
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Whatever.

I'm vaguely disappointed.

	10-10-2002 07:40									#35
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if anyone has seen the simpsons episode where Lisa joins Mensa and Mensa ends up running the local town's goverment, that is what I think would happen

The Simpsons is truer than you think.

I support stupid presidents

	10-10-2002 07:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The Army is one of the most progressive of all American institutions and I think it would do most people good to serve their country.

*cough* DADT *cough*

	10-10-2002 07:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Whatever. franky, Yes, and also the Judicial Branch seems to be falling under Executive Branch influence as well.

Wow, I was just thinking the same thing... crazy...

	10-10-2002 07:42									#38
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quote: *cough* DADT *cough*

edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. Forgot you were gay for a second there...

	10-10-2002 07:42									#39
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quote: I'm vaguely disappointed.

Sorry. A natural rights debate is useless, because neither side will budge one inch, no matter how seemingly reasonable the arguments of the other side are. So I'm not gonna waste my time

	10-10-2002 07:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident if anyone has seen the simpsons episode where Lisa joins Mensa and Mensa ends up running the local town's goverment, that is what I think would happen The Simpsons is truer than you think. I support stupid presidents

So I take it you support Bush, jr?

	10-10-2002 07:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sorry. A natural rights debate is useless, because neither side will budge one inch, no matter how seemingly reasonable the arguments of the other side are. So I'm not gonna waste my time

Fair enough. That was my point re: self evident.

	10-10-2002 07:49									#42
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well I voted for him. Seems like a stupid vote, but I didn't want Al Gore to be president. Whatcha goin' to do?- vote for Nader?

	10-10-2002 07:49									#43
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David, you are often preaching of natural rights, and the various other libertarian ideals that are in vogue these days.
It is fairly easy to see where these ideals might lead though. It is entirely possible that by legitimate means, say luck supplemented by contractual arrangements "freely undertaken" (as you Libs like to point out) one person might be able to gain control of the necessities of life. Under pressure of need, others are then free to sell themselves to this person as slaves, if he is willling to accept them. Otherwise they are free to perish. Under Libretarian ideals, this society is just.
I could go on and on, but Libertarian ideals regarding naturual property rights and so forth are inherently flawed.

	10-10-2002 07:50									#44
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and yes I do agree with David. The system we have now is best. Although it would be nice if the general public followed politics and law better. But that is the fault of society, not the goverment.

	10-10-2002 07:52									#45
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i voted democrat but it didn't matter because even before our polls closed, the nation already decided for us on what candidate we chose.

Electoral college sucks

	10-10-2002 07:53									#46
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Natural rights aren't a modern Libertarian concept. They've been around for a long time and are one of the cornerstones of the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence. If you don't believe in natural rights, then most of our system of government would be invalid.

Not that I agree with David Floyd...

	10-10-2002 07:55									#47
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Oh, I agree that there are natural rights, such as freedom of speech and so forth, but property natural rights seem, deciededly, unnatural.

	10-10-2002 07:58									#48
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Why is freedom of speech natural while property rights aren't? Both have been embedded in the American system since its beginnings...

The problem with natural rights is that they are supposedly endowed by God (or nature or whatever). It's hard to get rid of a right that is divinely given...

	10-10-2002 07:59									#49
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so there should be no property? If ther is property, it only seems natural that there are rights to go with that property.

	10-10-2002 08:08									#50
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My issue with the concept of natural rights is that they're too inflexible. Yes, people should have property rights - but absolute property rights would make it would be impossible for government - or society - to function. Essentially it would be every man for himself.

'Constitution' is a short form of saying 'we believe that we are more wise now than any of our successors ever could be, and so, we are creating a series of rules that shall live forever regardless of how the world changes in future'

Commandments have the same problem

IMO, of course.

	10-10-2002 08:50									#51
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I could go on and on about the immorality of such a system, but there's no need to. Deep down, you know slavery is wrong.

Why is voluntary service slavery?

	10-10-2002 08:55									#52
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Also, if the right to vote were based on service to America, anyone and everyone in the world could qualify simply by signing up.

	10-10-2002 09:02									#53
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Calulate the median income, factor in other assets and allow only the poorest 50% of Americans to vote. That would be swell.

While we are it, corporate boards should be elected by a weighted vote of the stockholders with the least stock and the least paid employees.

	10-10-2002 09:15									#54
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Calulate the median income, factor in other assets and allow only the poorest 50% of Americans to vote. That would be swell. While we are it, corporate boards should be elected by a weighted vote of the stockholders with the least stock and the least paid employees.

Surely you jest? This formula would last all of one second before the strong would f%%k the weak.

	10-10-2002 09:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why is freedom of speech natural while property rights aren't? Both have been embedded in the American system since its beginnings... The problem with natural rights is that they are supposedly endowed by God (or nature or whatever). It's hard to get rid of a right that is divinely given...

There are no natural rights. Government is either tyranny or a contract.

	10-10-2002 09:28									#56
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My litmus test for whether a right can be considered truly "natural" or not consists of whether or not we would have this right if we just existed in the wild, apart from civilization. Obviously we would have the right to speak freely, however property rights, however, would be nonexistant.

This may seem like a simplistic way of looking at things, but I have always found it to be the best way of determining which rights truly are the result of our divine creator, and which are entirely man-made.

	10-10-2002 09:48									#57
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"A little service would do you some good. Maybe you would learn to think about people besides yourself..."
I don't want to kill other people- that's why I don't want to join the army. I would hardly call this selfish…

	10-10-2002 09:53									#58
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I have to agree with Ned (I have to stop saying that ) in that there are no natural rights. Any rights you have come from government.

quote: My litmus test for whether a right can be considered truly "natural" or not consists of whether or not we would have this right if we just existed in the wild, apart from civilization. Obviously we would have the right to speak freely, however property rights, however, would be nonexistant.

The old 'State of Nature'? Hobbes believed that the state of nature was choas. Locke believed that in the state of nature people band together for protection. Hobbes believed the only natural right was life. Locke believed it was life, liberty, and property.

Freedom of Speech in the wild lasts as long as the strongest person says you don't have that right. And if you attempt to exercise it, the strong bonk you over the head.

One can easily say that in a state of nature, there is a right to property (you own all that you live on and protect) but no right to speech.

There are only power structures, and rights are made by the strong. This isn't inherantly bad, however.

	10-10-2002 10:08									#59
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On natural rights: An athlete meets a wimp in the wild. Why should the wimp have any rights at all. His lot is slavery.

Such was all government until the development of concepts of voting which required self-restraint by the strong. The first ruler to lay down power for a democracy was Theseus, I believe, of Athens in 1300 BC. That was remarkable.

	10-10-2002 10:30									#60
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quote: I don't want to kill other people- that's why I don't want to join the army. I would hardly call this selfish…

Then serve in the Peace Corps. I wasn't talking about you anyway, I was talking about David Floyd.