10-10-2002 06:20									#1
	The ivory tower intellectual vs the man on the street Enter the AD-FREE zone

Winston Churchill once said "the strongest objection that one can make for democracy is to talk to the man on the street about politics for five minutes"

And of course there is the saying "I would rather be governed by random people chosen from the phone book than the faculty at Harvard"

Who do you think should hold the power in society, The masses, or the intellectual elite? and to what degree?

	10-10-2002 06:23									#2
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Any kind of poll will tell you most people don't have a clue what's going on, so obviously most people shouldn't be in power.

	10-10-2002 06:28									#3
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For better or worse, the masses should hold the power. Sure, as a group they're pretty uninformed, but at least the masses will see to it that the majority of the mass is treated half way decently.

	10-10-2002 06:29									#4
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Great avatar btw Groucho.

	10-10-2002 06:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by - Groucho - For better or worse, the masses should hold the power. Sure, as a group they're pretty uninformed, but at least the masses will see to it that the majority of the mass is treated half way decently.

What about stuff like equal rights for blacks? Did the masses support that?

	10-10-2002 06:33									#6
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The Romans had it right. One had to be in the Army or be eligible to be in the Army to vote for Consul.

I would modify that in today's America. We could provide two or more kinds of service: one military and the other civilian. Service would be voluntary. But only those who served could vote.

For those of you who saw Starship Troopers, they had this system in the movie. In fact, the whole movie was real "Roman Empire" in its flavor.

	10-10-2002 06:33									#7
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i just wish more people would get involved

a motivated public should rule the country through democratic means...but if no one cares it'll degenerate into a near-republic of educated/interested people running the show anyway

	10-10-2002 06:34									#8
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Ned - that's an awful system. Why should one have to be in the military to vote??

	10-10-2002 06:44									#9
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He said that he would have a civilian service organization as well. If you don't like the military, you could do your service in the Peace Corps.

I think that the idea has merits. The Army is one of the most progressive of all American institutions and I think it would do most people good to serve their country.

	10-10-2002 06:45									#10
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why should someone be forced to serve in the armed forces OR peace corps just to vote?

	10-10-2002 06:49									#11
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I'm not really in favor of the idea of service being required to vote, but I think that mandatory service has its good points. I'm not in complete agreement with Ned, so you'll have to ask him.

	10-10-2002 06:54									#12
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I think the issue of allowing people to vote is overblown. Most of the people who are allowed to vote now, don't.

Anyway I thought of having a current events test or something like that as a prerequisite for voting, but that could easily be biased. Same with most other limits on the right to vote, I'll bet

	10-10-2002 06:54									#13
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-Ned
The idea is horrible, it refuses the vote to dissident individuals who refuse to serve in any way.

	10-10-2002 06:55									#14
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there should be no prereq to vote if you are a living breathing citizen

	10-10-2002 06:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What about stuff like equal rights for blacks? Did the masses support that?

Maybe / maybe not - note that I said majority. Sure there are better systems than rule of the masses but our choices were constrained to that or ivory tower elites. When those are your only choices ...

	10-10-2002 07:04									#16
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A representative democracy is the way to go but there is too much distance between the common man and national offices. Therefore money, much of it corporate, determines elections through the use of advertising.

This is why we see so many incumbants win over and over. And this sets up the lobby/pocket politician loop.

The masses should hold the power but although everyone can vote they have little power, nor does the intellectual elite.

Corporations essentially rule the America. There is essentially no chance of a third party gaining a national voice.

	10-10-2002 07:06									#17
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I'd have to say a combination of both. Sometimes 'the masses' produce ludicrous idea's that think are feasible. The 'Intellectuals" (from my own experience) seem to be too detachted from reality. They may have all these theories, but they (the brainiacs) don't seem to have the common knowledge of practicality.

So, I'd say a council of elected intellectuals as well as blue-collar workers....with some white-collars thrown in as well..

	10-10-2002 07:08									#18
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Laws are made to benefit those in power. It doesn't matter if you live in Tajikistan, PRC, Taiwan or America.

Like jimmy says, corporations rule America and they are the policy makers.....but times do change.

	10-10-2002 07:09									#19
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quote: I think that mandatory service has its good points

And maybe if someone doesn't want to serve in the military or peace corps, it would be OK to force them to work out in the fields.

Oh, but wait. We used to have a system in which people were forced to work out in the fields. It was called....oh yeah, slavery

As to the masses holding the power, I don't think so. The masses are in general stupid, and not only stupid but selfish and greedy. They are not likely to recognize the concept of self-evident natural rights, and will act to rob people under the aegis of "equalizing income and resources".

The best system is a type of representative democracy, governed by a Constitution as the supreme law of the land. It would be possible to change certain aspects of that Constitution - mainly procedural aspects and the like - but utterly impossible to amend it in such a way that a person's natural liberty could ever be taken away (with the obvious sole exception of that person engaging in criminal activity, which is defined as depriving or attempting to deprive another of their natural rights).

	10-10-2002 07:12									#20
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There should be absolutely no restrictions for adults to vote.

quote: What about stuff like equal rights for blacks? Did the masses support that?

Blacks were disenfranchised and marginalized in the American South through literacy tests. If there weren't any literacy tests, the civil rights situation prior to their dismantlement likely would've been far better.

	10-10-2002 07:14									#21
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Dum dum dee dee duuummmm!

Baldface-assertion-man, to the rescue!

What's this? A theoretical question on democracy!?! There won't be any of that while I'm on patrol!

Take that!

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Corporations essentially rule the America.

And THAT!

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick There is essentially no chance of a third party gaining a national voice.

My work here is done! -swoosh-

	10-10-2002 07:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider -Ned The idea is horrible, it refuses the vote to dissident individuals who refuse to serve in any way.

How would one distinguish between one who "refused" to serve in a voluntary organization with those who preferred to do something else, but only for themselves?

Of course, I would provide for exceptions based upon incapacity.

But I could see civilian service to be in a variety of needed public services, such as for example, service in the Red Cross, Peace Corps, or some sort of Big Brother or Sister programs that would tutor the poorer performing students, or provide meals on wheels to the ederly. I could go on and on. All of us could.

	10-10-2002 07:19									#23
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I could go on and on about the immorality of such a system, but there's no need to. Deep down, you know slavery is wrong.

	10-10-2002 07:19									#24
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Doctors, lawyers, people that provide important services to the community. Flipping burgers at McDonalds would not qualify.

	10-10-2002 07:20									#25
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quote: I could go on and on about the immorality of such a system, but there's no need to. Deep down, you know slavery is wrong.

A little service would do you some good. Maybe you would learn to think about people besides yourself...

	10-10-2002 07:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd As to the masses holding the power, I don't think so. The masses are in general stupid, and not only stupid but selfish and greedy. They are not likely to recognize the concept of self-evident natural rights, and will act to rob people under the aegis of "equalizing income and resources".

David, you obviously do not consider yourself one of the masses.

Look, the elite have robbed the masses under the aegis of "capitalism and evident natural rights" since the inception of this country. They have even made up evident nautral rights out of whole cloth..like manifest destiny. How can you call the masses greedy and selfish without pointing that relatively speaking, they are much less so that the elite. And as for the stupidity part, thats what the Brittish said about the ignorant masses of American colonialists.

	10-10-2002 07:24									#27
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One recurring theme I hear at Poly is the thinking that education equals intelligence and lack of education equals stupidity. This is such a clear and self evident falsehood that I am constantly shocked that it is so prevelant on a internet site that has so many intelligent student posters. I can only credit youthful ignorance and intellectual snobbery.

	10-10-2002 07:29									#28
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Drake,

quote: A little service would do you some good. Maybe you would learn to think about people besides yourself...

Fair enough, but if anyone forces me into some sort of service, that is slavery.

jt,

quote: David, you obviously do not consider yourself one of the masses.

I suppose not in the way I am using the term.

quote: Look, the elite have robbed the masses under the aegis of "capitalism and evident natural rights" since the inception of this country.

Wrong. Exercising your natural rights - which never extend to violating those of others - is not robbery. If one person happens to do better than another, such is the system.

quote: They have even made up evident nautral rights out of whole cloth..like manifest destiny.

Yes, in lots of ways the "elites" have been just as bad as the "masses". Your point?

quote: can you call the masses greedy and selfish without pointing that relatively speaking, they are much less so that the elite.

I suppose that lots of people are greedy. That does not mean, though, that you are greedy for wanting to hold on to your property.

quote: One recurring theme I hear at Poly is the thinking that education equals intelligence and lack of education equals stupidity.

A better word might be ignorance....but in any case, I largely agree with you. There are lots of educated people who I would not want to see running things.

	10-10-2002 07:30									#29
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It's when the ignorance is so permeated into a person's beliefs, that's when education=intelligence.

	10-10-2002 07:31									#30
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Actually, I think my point is this: No one person or group can be trusted to run things in a manner consistent with freedom. Therefore, a representative democracy elected by the people as a whole is needed, which itself is subject to a Constitution which in many ways cannot be changed.