10-10-2002 10:50									#61
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Drake - why don't we have literacy checks before being allowed to vote? Or a poll tax?

Because it's wrong, and more importantly, illegal

	10-10-2002 11:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by orange Drake - why don't we have literacy checks before being allowed to vote? Or a poll tax? Because it's wrong, and more importantly, illegal

Yeah, plus we don't need them in the US because we already have their net effect: American voters tend to be wealthier and (believe it of not) better-educated than the population as a whole. They also tend to be older and whiter. This explains, in part, how the GOP has weilded so much power in the post-war years, in spite of being the minority party; there are more Democrats in the country, but more Republicans vote.

	10-10-2002 11:12									#63
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quote: Drake - why don't we have literacy checks before being allowed to vote? Or a poll tax?

I clearly stated earlier that I don't support requiring national service for people to vote. That was Ned's idea. I just said that I think that a mandatory service program has a lot of good aspects to it. I never said or implied that I wanted to limit voting privileges in any way.

Thank goodness we don't have literacy checks or you wouldn't be able to vote at all...

	10-10-2002 11:33									#64
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Lots of southern democrats tend to vote Republican too. Much more moderate than northern or west coast Democrats.

A good strategy for the Dems is to run a southern centrist for president. Especially one who is not tainted by a lot of years in Washington. Carter, Clinton. Gore was a no go. Humphrey, McGovern, Dukakis, Mondale all from the north were losers.

If you looked at the electoral map the country was very strongly divided with the democrats having big wins in high population centers and most of the rural vote going for Bush. Edwards of NC might be the best candidate for the Dems in 2004.

	10-10-2002 11:42									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually, I think my point is this: No one person or group can be trusted to run things in a manner consistent with freedom. Therefore, a representative democracy elected by the people as a whole is needed, which itself is subject to a Constitution which in many ways cannot be changed.

Two points:

1. Who should write this constitution? The US Constitution wasn't written by representatives elected by the masses but a small elite group of men.

2. If the Constitution can't be changed, it is useless. The writers certainly cannot foresee what changes will take place in a hundred years. If the Constitution is written in very vague and broad terms to cover for this, it is largely meaningless. If it is precisely written, it could not keep up with the changes.

	10-10-2002 12:03									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Romans had it right. One had to be in the Army or be eligible to be in the Army to vote for Consul. I would modify that in today's America. We could provide two or more kinds of service: one military and the other civilian. Service would be voluntary. But only those who served could vote.

Then I assume you propose a tax exemption for everyone else?

I vaguely remember someone once said something about taxation without representation?

	10-10-2002 12:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Lots of southern democrats tend to vote Republican too. Much more moderate than northern or west coast Democrats. A good strategy for the Dems is to run a southern centrist for president. Especially one who is not tainted by a lot of years in Washington. Carter, Clinton. Gore was a no go. Humphrey, McGovern, Dukakis, Mondale all from the north were losers. If you looked at the electoral map the country was very strongly divided with the democrats having big wins in high population centers and most of the rural vote going for Bush. Edwards of NC might be the best candidate for the Dems in 2004.

I absolutely agree. But it is interesting that the other thing that map indicates is that the Dems could also just abandon the South (except Florida, which isn't the South...except in its north) and try to be slightly more competative in the Northeast and Midwest (where they took every state except Ohio, Indiana, and New Hampshire, IIRC). Indiana's hopelessly Republican, but the Dems can actually compete in Ohio and NH.

	10-10-2002 13:16									#68
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bah...people don't know and don't want to know...they are perfectly content going to vote every couple of years and feeling like they did their part. I think most people would see it as too much of a hassle...

	10-10-2002 13:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by orange why should someone be forced to serve in the armed forces OR peace corps just to vote?

To keep do-nothing crybabies like you from having a say in running the country.

	10-10-2002 14:20									#70
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick One recurring theme I hear at Poly is the thinking that education equals intelligence and lack of education equals stupidity. This is such a clear and self evident falsehood that I am constantly shocked that it is so prevelant on a internet site that has so many intelligent student posters. I can only credit youthful ignorance and intellectual snobbery.

A very good point, and though the typical offender is a student with no real world experience to speak of, even people with plenty of tangible experience fall into the trap of arguing with their college transcripts. Personally, I'd hire someone with "only" experience long before I would hire someone with only an education. I've seen them both in action, and experience is the winner hands down.

This is why this country would be better off hedging our bets in regards to education. We seem dead set on producing people who are in their mid to late 20's who have been educated at great expense, and who have little or no real world experience. These people are missing the boat often times, because they have made a personally massive investment in an education that has not been tempered in the least by any real experience.

I have seen a number of people bag their advanced degrees once they saw how things worked in their chosen field after some real life experience. Too bad they didn't take a year and work in the field ahead of time, rather than wasting several years getting educated for a career that they have no interest in. Additionally, even if one still is as excited by their career choice after a bit of experience, having the experience allows them to better tailor their education to their career. You can't expect professors who have never worked in the private sector to know how to tailor their classes to the individual needs of their students.

Take it from me, the University will still be there if you decide to step into the real world after 13 years of public schooling. Not only will it still be there, but the chances are that you will make much better use of the resources both you and society expend there.

	10-10-2002 14:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider David, you are often preaching of natural rights, and the various other libertarian ideals that are in vogue these days. It is fairly easy to see where these ideals might lead though. It is entirely possible that by legitimate means, say luck supplemented by contractual arrangements "freely undertaken" (as you Libs like to point out) one person might be able to gain control of the necessities of life. Under pressure of need, others are then free to sell themselves to this person as slaves, if he is willling to accept them. Otherwise they are free to perish. Under Libretarian ideals, this society is just. I could go on and on, but Libertarian ideals regarding naturual property rights and so forth are inherently flawed.

Like you commies have any room to talk.

	10-10-2002 14:29									#72
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"You can't expect professors who have never worked in the private sector to know how to tailor their classes to the individual needs of their students."

You can't expect that anyway as most classes have to be onesizefitsall. Unless you have a prof-student ratio of 1:1.

As for the issue, spare us the rule by self-proclaimed elites.

	10-10-2002 14:36									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "You can't expect professors who have never worked in the private sector to know how to tailor their classes to the individual needs of their students." You can't expect that anyway as most classes have to be onesizefitsall. Unless you have a prof-student ratio of 1:1. As for the issue, spare us the rule by self-proclaimed elites.

I've had a number of professors who were quite willing to allow me to take their course in a different direction than was typical. But I had to know what I wanted to do, they weren't so good at suggesting something beyond what they already offered. Thus my real world experience really helped me here, as I was able to mould my course a bit in order to make it more germain to my needs.

And I agree completely about the elites.

	10-10-2002 14:48									#74
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"But I had to know what I wanted to do, they weren't so good at suggesting something beyond what they already offered."

Exactly - no prof can guess students' individual interests, especially for those who do not even know what they want.

	10-10-2002 15:37									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What about stuff like equal rights for blacks? Did the masses support that?

Eventually.

	10-10-2002 16:03									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Drake - why don't we have literacy checks before being allowed to vote? Or a poll tax? I clearly stated earlier that I don't support requiring national service for people to vote. That was Ned's idea. I just said that I think that a mandatory service program has a lot of good aspects to it. I never said or implied that I wanted to limit voting privileges in any way. Thank goodness we don't have literacy checks or you wouldn't be able to vote at all...

	10-10-2002 17:36									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then I assume you propose a tax exemption for everyone else? I vaguely remember someone once said something about taxation without representation?

Now there's an idea! I wonder just how many people would give up the right to vote if it would mean that they didn't have to pay taxes....?

	10-10-2002 19:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I have seen a number of people bag their advanced degrees once they saw how things worked in their chosen field after some real life experience. Too bad they didn't take a year and work in the field ahead of time, rather than wasting several years getting educated for a career that they have no interest in. Additionally, even if one still is as excited by their career choice after a bit of experience, having the experience allows them to better tailor their education to their career.

I was surprised to hear though (from a reasonably reliable source) that for many of the Ivy League or major universities in the US it is a big negative for entrance to have taken time off from academics. In contrast, in both Canada and Sweden it is the exact opposite.

	10-10-2002 19:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Great avatar btw Groucho.

I agree, that is a great avatar.

	10-10-2002 19:10									#80
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As an "ivory tower resident" I can categorically state that I would not want my fellow residents running the country. I wouldnt trust some of them to run a toaster without mishap.

	10-10-2002 19:36									#81
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Okay, I don't want to get dragged into this one, but there's something so blindingly illogical I just have to comment.

--"Obviously we would have the right to speak freely, however property rights, however, would be nonexistant."

I fail to see where you make any argument to support this assertion. If there's nothing in the state of nature to prevent us from saying what we want, what is there to prevent you from, say, picking up a stick and calling it your club? Or knapping a piece of flint, tying it to your stick, and calling it an axe?
Oops, you've just discovered property. Might find it a good idea to keep useful items around.

Property rights seem to pass your state of nature test without a problem.

Wraith
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
-- Thomas Jefferson

	10-10-2002 19:39									#82
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That's not property, that's mere possession.

	10-10-2002 20:25									#83
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This is a very good thread topic. I haven't read the whole thread yet so this may have already been said:

The "masses" cannot simply run a country or any society for that matter. That is, uness those people have some idea type of decent morality as a foundation for their rule. A corrupt mass of people can do no better than a corrupt elite. If either group gains power the end result is still corruption.

I am all for the common man on the street. Wisdom is often found there while it escapes those who sit in their ivory towers and read book and teach ridiculous concepts about abstract nonsense. But on the other hand sometimes the man on the street who actually has wisdom finds himself in a leadership position. This is supposed to be how a republican form of government works.

The local people have intimate knowledge of individuals among them who are wise and honest and they elect them to become their leaders. Now days however people are elected (except for local ofices) by the media, with each side spewing out their own propganda.

Because of the present corruption among the leaders and the "masses" I don't know the solution. Mob rule however is generally the lowest form of society. If the mob gets tired of the anarchy then they may find a leader among them to restore order of some kind. In any case, wisdom comes from the people on the street and a good leader will seek out that input before he makes his decisions.

	10-10-2002 21:00									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then I assume you propose a tax exemption for everyone else? I vaguely remember someone once said something about taxation without representation?

The Romans had an answer for that one too - Roman citizens don't pay taxes. Everyone else does.

Actually, come to think of it, one could "reduce" taxes by a percentage for each year of service. After 30 years, taxes could be zero.

Also, after reading these threads, I would also assure that no one had a "right" to enter service. One would still have to pass mental and physical tests, and of course, be able to read and write - English.

	10-10-2002 21:06									#85
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"and of course, be able to read and write - English."

	10-10-2002 21:22									#86
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I find this discussion a little bit bizarre. Why would more education ever lead to someone being less fit to govern? Clearly the better educated someone is the more knowledge they can draw from and the more logic they can apply to the problems they face. This can only be a good thing.

What (I think) some of you are really trying to say is that the people who have gone to the lengths to achieve their place in their 'ivory towers' are not necessarily well suited to govern because of the other effects that education has had.

First of all, it is a filtering mechanism. People who do well academically are often people who have put all their time into their studies and therefore may lack social skills or social awareness. That is, they may be the steriotypical nerds, out of touch with the 'common man'.

Also, by being firmly ensconced in academia, they may move in circles which are somewhat different from those of the 'common man'. For example, they may never have experienced the hardships that poverty causes or seen the effects of drug abuse first hand etc. This may leave them in a poor position for governance.

However, while I admit that this may be true for some academics it is not universal. There are plenty of academics who have plenty of experience of life, who have great social skills and who would make excellent leaders. To say that all academics are so socially handicapped is steriotyping in its crudest form, and (speaking as an academic) is frankly insulting. It is just as bad as saying that the man on the street is universally ignorant, greedy and selfish.

I don't think that the people who we elect to govern should necessarily have knowledge of 'abstract nonsense' since it does not necessarily help them govern, but they should certainly not be excluded for knowing about such things. They should instead be chosen by how much relevant experience and knowledge they have - however that is measured - and the most capable chosen irrespective of social class.

I think the present system (representative democracy) is the best in principle. However, I would like to see more regulation. For example, perhaps all candidates which pass a certain hurdle should be given a fixed amount of money for advertising, and should then be allowed to only use that amount. At the moment candidates seem to buy their way into power by throwing their money around at campaign time.

	10-10-2002 21:33									#87
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--"That's not property, that's mere possession. "

Well, a quick exorcism will solve that problem.

Wraith
"Careful, Klinger. Dressing as a nun can be habit-forming."
-- BJ ("M*A*S*H")

	10-10-2002 21:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "and of course, be able to read and write - English."

Roland, should be the same test in Austria.

	10-10-2002 22:09									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Romans had an answer for that one too - Roman citizens don't pay taxes. Everyone else does.

Yeah, and this proved to be a major disaster in the long run and contributed greatly to the eventual collapse of the Roman Empire. Draining the provinces of wealth to feed the central bureacracy was not a good idea.

	10-10-2002 22:18									#90
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If we are taking things from scratch, I would have a Senate composed of ex-presidents and ex-governors who would serve for life - very similar to the Roman Senate. The House would remain unchanged.

The new Senate, composed of elder statesmen who served for life would be less susceptible to "pork barrel" politics.

I would also give the Senate the power to remove a president or any presidential appointee by two thirds majority vote. There would not have to be a High Crime and Misdemeanor, as with Impeachment.