14-10-2002 11:58									#31
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Bah 312 Kiwis missing

	14-10-2002 14:57									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And where is Eli to gloat about how the Australians and Indonesians finally understand terrorism?

Especially considering that many cite the policies that he supports, and America's blind support of the Israeli state under any circumstances as the cause of these terrorist attacks that are currently sweeping the World...

I for one am planning to be in Indonesia in January 2003 - for better or worse!

	14-10-2002 15:03									#33
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There you go again, Mobius, blaming the victims...

	14-10-2002 15:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk There you go again, Mobius, blaming the victims...

Sorry?

I don't remember mentioning the Palestinians recently, actually.

	14-10-2002 15:39									#35
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You seem to be implying that the Australians and Kiwis were attacked because they were supporting the United States.

	14-10-2002 15:47									#36
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Australia is probably even more of an outspoken supporter of the US' wanting to declare war against Iraq than even the UK - at least it seems so from here...

	14-10-2002 15:50									#37
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So its their own fault then, for sending troops to Afghanistan?

	14-10-2002 16:01									#38
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Sorry, I didn't mention Afghanistan - I was talking about Iraq...

But if you believe it's their fault for sending troops to Afghanistan, well you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

	14-10-2002 16:04									#39
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What were you trying to say then? You weren't being very clear as to why they'd attack Aussies.

	14-10-2002 16:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk What were you trying to say then? You weren't being very clear as to why they'd attack Aussies.

What part of...

"Australia is probably even more of an outspoken supporter of the US' wanting to declare war against Iraq than even the UK - at least it seems so from here..."

...isn't very clear?

	14-10-2002 16:18									#41
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I wasn't sure if you were being facetious, since what the Australian government is saying and what the average citizen is saying isn't quite the same thing.

	14-10-2002 16:31									#42
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Yes, but that's always the problem isn't it?

The decision makers know they will be safe from the consequences of their actions, whilst it is always the innocent that suffer!

	14-10-2002 16:57									#43
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There's been a lot of criticism of the Government on talkback radio today for being too high profile in supporting the United States and unnecessarily making Australians a target for terrorists.

There could be quite a backlash about it.

The other reaction, probably equally as strong, has been of defiance and goes a long the lines of "well f*ck the terrorists, we'll stand with our friends" i.e. the US and Britain.

The 2 sentiments aren't necessarily contradictory or opposed. The government is seen widely as being a stupid big mouth but at the same time there's a feeling of being in the same boat as the Americans and a quiet Australian sort of determination to get on and deal with this, in our own way and our own time.

Its the largest single loss of Australian life since World War II.

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 14-10-2002 at 17:07

	14-10-2002 17:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The other reaction, probably equally as strong, has been of defiance and goes a long the lines of "well f*ck the terrorists, we'll stand with our friends" i.e. the US and Britain.

I'm all for standing by our friends in time of need, I fully supported the demise (if not the method) of the Taliban.

Iraq IMO is something completely different and sinister and frankly I don't want to be a part of what Bush is proposing, yet because I carry a british passport I am seen as a US lackey in the eyes of Muslim fanatics...

quote: The government is seen widely as being a stupid big mouth but at the same time there's a feeling of being in the same boat as the Americans.

Ain't that the truth!

Howard has been banging the drums of war for quite a few months lately, puffing his chest out like a right little nationalist! The moment the Iraqis threatened to cut Australian Grain revenues, the government started to choke. Now faced with backing up words with deeds in what could be a unilateral strike by the US, poor little Howard has been hastily backtracking!

Problem is, all the Muslim Fanatics remember is the sabre rattling!

...And now Australia is in the same boat as the US, because they climbed in!

	14-10-2002 17:32									#45
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This is a absolute disaster - the images and stories we're getting are horrific. But 200 missing, not 200 dead - there is still some hope.

Whatever the loss is in the end they've made Sunday a day of national mourning, this calls for it. Whether the dead are Australians, other Westerners or locals they all died for no reason.

****s. Terrorists make no bloody sense. Why blow up their own infrastructure to attack westerners who have nothing against them? Just for the record regardless of what Howard yaks most Australians don't want to go to war in the Middle East without the UN.

Aside from the grief I feel for my fellow nationals I can't help feel sorry for Bali's ruined image - it was a top tourist destination a few days ago, I myself was planning a holiday there next year. Tourism's all they've got. Indonesia's government better get off its corrupt backside and cooperate - for Bali and the Australians who won't be coming home.

	14-10-2002 17:47									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS ...And now Australia is in the same boat as the US, because they climbed in!

I'd prefer to be in the same boat with the US and the rest of the free world if the alternative is catering to terrorists by remaining silent when they attack innocents.

	14-10-2002 17:52									#47
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I'd say that this attack means that no Australian troops will be participating in any attack on Iraq. There's no way that the Australian people are now going to ever approve a government policy which involves sending the best bits of our military to the Middle East to fight in someone elses war, and any politican who proposes this would now be signing their political death certificate.

	14-10-2002 17:55									#48
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Incidently, I like the way Australians start apportioning blame as soon as a disarster hits - it certainly beats US style flag waving.

	14-10-2002 18:28									#49
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What happens if it turns out that this was in response to Australian 'interference' in East Timor?

	14-10-2002 18:57									#50
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I don't know about international laws, procedures etc. But I just thought about these things again. Now, about terrorism and harboring countries.

Nations should be obligated to protect their citizens. Also foreigners who are visiting. If there's a terrorist attack, like bombing incident, the country where it happens is obligated to do _everything_ in their power to arrest these terrorist and also allow the country where the victims are from make their own investigation fully co-operating. Every time. If country is unable to get these terrorist, they are not capable of running this country, since they are not in control, and the country is ruled by terrorists. Simple as that. This country should not even be recognized by other countries. It's a country in anarchy.
If they don't give their absolute everything and co-operate with victims countries investigators, they show their lack of interest, and victims country can decide what to do with them. They are then letting foreigners getting killed, and do nothing about it.

In either case, the terrorists should be in control fast. If they are lacking funding or what ever the reason, then they are not capable of running a country. Then terrorists are ruling, and that country should not be dealt with. Simple as that. I don't know if this is how nations do business already, but this is the way I think they should do it.

	14-10-2002 19:12									#51
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This is not a matter of supporting the United States. Like it or not there are some people in this world who hate anyone who is not a fanatical Muslim (or fanatical whatever). The civilized world will be drawn into the war on terrorism regrdless of what the United States does. It is a huge mistake now to engage in infighting among ourselves. What can Australia do now alone for example to fight terorism? And what can the United States do alone -- or France? It is an international conflict and we cannot escape the necessity to get along. One thing is certain and that is there are people in this world who do not listen to reason and their express targets are the innocent. Surely this is a common enemy.

	14-10-2002 19:16									#52
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Don't like being in the boat? Climb the hell out.
But when you're up to your ass in alligators, don't expect to climb back on board.

	14-10-2002 19:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Especially considering that many cite the policies that he supports, and America's blind support of the Israeli state under any circumstances as the cause of these terrorist attacks that are currently sweeping the World...

I would have thought that the East Timor mess would have been a more likely cause for this attack. Has there been a group that has claimed responsibility that I'm not aware of? Or are you just assuming things not in evidence?

	14-10-2002 19:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln This is not a matter of supporting the United States. Like it or not there are some people in this world who hate anyone who is not a fanatical Muslim (or fanatical whatever).

This is as much a baseless assertion as assuming it was because of Australian support. We don't know yet, that's all we can say.

Certainly, as has been cited, there was plenty of talk beforehand about resentment of Australian support for the U.S. policy. Considering the huge Muslim population of the area, and Al-Queda's reach there, it is just as reasonable to believe they may be behind the attack as anyone else.

	14-10-2002 19:40									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Has there been a group that has claimed responsibility that I'm not aware of? Or are you just assuming things not in evidence?

Come on Dino, do you really have to ask that question of him? Anything that he can remotely blame on the US and Israel will draw him out.

Case: If the reason Australia refuses to do something is because it is afraid of these attacks then expect to see this everytime Oz is confronted with a difficult decison. Make your arguments about it being wrong or right about attacking Iraq all you want but the reason better not be because you are afraid.

Oh and I love the way you like to insert your little comment about American flag waving. Apparently you get your information from biased sources or you see what you want to see. We have plenty of finger poiting and blame seeking over here thank you very much.

	14-10-2002 19:47									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Come on Dino, do you really have to ask that question of him?

Yes. Making him come to terms with his racist attitudes toward Muslims is an important part of his becoming a better person.

	14-10-2002 19:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes. Making him come to terms with his racist attitudes toward Muslims is an important part of his becoming a better person.

Your good deed for the day?

	14-10-2002 19:52									#58
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I try to help at least one person a little bit each day.

	14-10-2002 19:53									#59
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that's a matter of supporting the US.

and it's ok to support it when your interests are common but if they are not then don't (to the point that the US terrorism this time doesnt affect you).

i'm sure many european countries will never have the fate of bali just because of that.

	14-10-2002 19:55									#60
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I think think there is a little more than just a little help that will be involved.


schmoo: I hope that you hear from your brother soon please tell me any info.