15-10-2002 23:23									#31
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quote: You know, crusader doesn't soley refer to the Knights of Western Europe who invaded the ME in the 11th to 13th Centuries.

No, but that's who it sounded like you meant. If I made a mistake, forgive me. I will certainly agree that in some cases crusaders crusade for a cause out of altruism.

	15-10-2002 23:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmmm. So you argue that some of these states, absent imperialism, would be rich and strong nations today?

Rich and strong? No. Stable and fairly middle class, depends on the country. Pre-Gulf War Iraq was a fairly wealthy country, a sizable middle class, women's rights, high levels of education, a small manufacturing base, etc. This was based on oil wealth, and not every country could do it. However, it shares the same culture as Jordan, Syria, and the Gulf States, and yet it's people were far better off than any of their neighbors.

quote: Personally, given the size of those countries and their relative lack of natural resources (other than, in some cases, oil and natural gas), I don't really agree.

Tunisia will probably always be poor, yes, and Yemen. But Lebanon was a relatively wealthy country because it was a banking center. The government set up by the French, however, was discrimintory against Muslims, and so Civil War broke out and ruined the country. Had there been a more democratic sharing of power, rather than one which perpetuated French interests, then quite possibly Lebanon wouldn't be the basket case it is today.

	15-10-2002 23:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If I made a mistake, forgive me. I will certainly agree that in some cases crusaders crusade for a cause out of altruism.

You're forgiven.

BTW, just because someone is on a crusade doesn't mean they are noble or good. The Nazis thought they were crudasers saving the world from the Jewish and Bolshevik menace.

	15-10-2002 23:35									#34
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People are *not* born evil, but decisions they make in life can turn them evil. Osama bin Laden is but one example of this.

Bin Laden was born into wealth. He professes to care for the poor, downtrodden masses in the Middle East, yet what has he done with his wealth? He's used it to whip up death and mayhem, all in the name of Islam.

If bin Laden had really cared for those he claims to care for, he could have easily chosen a different route to use his influence. He could have build hospitals, libraries or put money into barren earth and make it green. The bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia isn't w/o influence — he could've tried to institute reform in the government, perhaps giving the common people more of a voice in the kingdom's affairs. Hell, maybe he could've started a newspaper that was genuinely free of the editorial hallmarks that state-run papers are well-known for.

All of that, however, isn't necessarily easy to see to fruition. Yet it's also the path most likely to lead to success, not only for those who build and nurture such institutions and actions, but also for those who benefit from the mere existence of such institutions.

What I'm saying is this: Osama bin Laden had a choice. He made it, and everything else is nothing more than a phantom "what-if" island amid the ocean of blood and carnage that is reality.

Bin Laden's choices have turned him evil, IMHO.

Gatekeeper

	15-10-2002 23:58									#35
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quote: It might, if they were suffering from a shortage of labor, which they aren't. There are many reasons for the poverty of the ME, religion and culture aren't among them. .

Discrimination of women causes a antidemocratic mentality which causes the absense of democracy. With democracy maybe the wealth would be distributed to more people.

quote: Imperialism and the political and economic structures that were set up by imperialism have far more to do with the poverty in their world

But why is it that the West could go imperialist in the ME and not vice versa? It wouldn't surprise me if the reason has got something to do with culture/religion.

	16-10-2002 00:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Discrimination of women is linked to the absense of democracy which again is linked to poverty. With democracy maybe the wealth would be distributed to more people.

Women have the vote in Pakistan, Iran, and India, and they are severely discriminated against in those countries (despite the fact that two of them elected female presidents). Women are also discriminated against in the US, and until very recently, severely so (up until the mid '80s). Yet we were the wealthiest nation in the world before then and women had had the right to vote nationwide for at least 60 years.

Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea are all either dictatorships or extremely authoritarian countries with a semblence of democracy. They are all highly developed and considered wealthy, despite recent setbacks.

So discrimination against women and the lack of democracy don't seem to be the main problems. Hell, the US is one of the more representitive countries in the world, and it also has one of the largest disparities between classes.

quote: But why is it that the West could go imperialist in the ME and not vice versa? It wouldn't surprise me if the reason has got something to do with culture/religion.

Well, they did, but that was centuries ago. The ME had more decentralized states, which is sorta counter-productive to expansion. ME wealth was also largely based on being the middle man, so they had no reason to introduce new technologies, where as the Europeans did. Once the EUropeans could cut out the ME as far as trade went, it was really just a matter of time before the ME was overshadowed by European power.

Anyway, the ME had something Europe needed, which is a big incentive to conquest, as opposed to just liking to see your flag flying over the Balkans.

	16-10-2002 00:27									#37
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It was my understanding that OBL's #1 reason for declaring war on the United States (1993) was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia - the home of Islam's holy sites. To make that a bit broader: Yankee go home.

The other reasoning: poverty, lack of democracy, support for Israel, hatred of our values, whatever... is secondary. Hell, OBL only tacked on the Pal/Israeli squabble post-9/11, when he realized it had broad appeal.

Speaking of broad appeal, that's where things like widespread poverty, political oppression, etc., come into play. Those factors, combined with US foreign policy, are why the so-called "Arab street" is pro-Bin Laden. It probably helps garner support for the real hardcore nutbags, but the hardcore nutbags themselves are people like OBL - and it's not poverty or lack of democracy which drives them.

-Arrian

	16-10-2002 00:28									#38
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Che, I beg to differ. Radical Islam has been around for more that 200 years. It is a movement that wants to restore the pure Islam of a mythic past. It has nothing to do with poverty. It has everything to do with a severe clash of culture, particularly with America. We not only are unbelievers, we are also libertines. OBL does not want his followers to become rich and decadent like we are, he wants us to become poor and pious as he is.

In a sense, this is a rebirth of the original Arab spirit to conquer and spread the faith. This is a war of faith, of ideals, of ways of life.

	16-10-2002 00:28									#39
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You are correct, sir.

	16-10-2002 00:45									#40
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Hmmm... agreeing with che might be bad for my psyche, but I find myself doing it again .

quote: With democracy maybe the wealth would be distributed to more people.

China is really poor because they don't have democracy right? And like che said, the US has one of the greatest weath disparties in the world, the distribution isn't done very well (and that is by design, btw).

quote: But why is it that the West could go imperialist in the ME and not vice versa?

They did!! The Muslim empire streached from France to India at one point. And later on went to the wall of Vienna. Ask Greeks on this site if the Muslim Turks weren't imperialist.

The only problem was that the Islamic world was falling at the same time the European world was rising, and it was that time that industrialization was discovered.

Islamic culture didn't prevent it from being the richest empire in the world in the 1200s. All the places that Islam conquered in Europe at that time (Spain, Siciliy) were by far the richest areas in the continent. And North Africa made Europe look like child's play.

quote: Radical Islam has been around for more that 200 years.

But it hasn't gained much sway except under colonialism and recently in the impoverished state of affairs of the ME. After independance, nationalist movements were in charge and Islamism was a minor portion.

	16-10-2002 02:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Imperialism and the political and economic structures that were set up by imperialism have far more to do with the poverty in their world.

Poverty is the natural state of existence. The Arabs were wealthy beyond the imagination of the West during the Middle Ages. Why did they falter to the Turks first, and then the West? Why didn't they keep up?

Because their culture is too rigid to allow them to produce wealth. They were impoverished before the Europeans started exploiting them. Quit blaming everybody's problems on your personal fued with liberalism, and come to your senses. Running a society in the third millenium, with a first millenium economic system is not going to make people any better off. Embracing the free market, and free trade will.

Hong Kong and Singapore were both colonies. Why aren't they suffering like the Arabs are?

	16-10-2002 03:22									#42
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Read my responses to David Floyd and Gangerolf.

Hong Kong and Singapore succeeded where others failed because the British Empire funneled trade through them. They both became a major finance centers and used that wealth to expand manufacturing.

The ME does not have a 1st millenium economy. They have 21st century economies. The problem is their economies are that of neo-colonies in the 21st century rather than imperialist countries in 21st century or even simply developed nations in the 21st century.

You might also remember (rather than chosing to ignore) the fact that when those nations attempted to take steps to rearrange their economies more in their favor, the US immediately overthrew them or pressured them. The list of such countries is a very long one, and not merely limited to the ME. In fact, the US overthrew, invaded, or otherwise intervened in almost one country per year in the post-War period.

	16-10-2002 03:24									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood What makes a person kill another human in the name of GOD?

God told them to do it...

	16-10-2002 03:55									#45
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May I point out that the guys who bombed the clubs in Bali surely knew that very few of the casualties were likely to be Americans? In fact, they also almost certainly knew that the vast majority would be Australians and New Zealanders. Neither of those nations played much of a role in the Gulf War.

	16-10-2002 03:59									#46
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Well, if you are a terrorist ground in Indonesia, you really have a limited oppertunity to take out Americans.

Remember, although OBL is the 'leader' of Al Queda, it is a very fragmented group, which really has no primary authority.

	16-10-2002 04:16									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui China is really poor because they don't have democracy right? And like che said, the US has one of the greatest weath disparties in the world, the distribution isn't done very well (and that is by design, btw).

The only reason China hasn't imploded yet is that authoritarianism is keeping order. This is cruel but true. Had the communist party collapsed in '89, China would have been torn apart by social chaos and economic ruin. It wouldn't be half of what it is now, not a quarter. It would be nothing, as it had already been for a century under surge after surge of populist movements.

The same, in fact, can be said about South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong, the 4 Asian Economic Miracles. All achieved their greatest growth and prosperity under dictatorships - SK and Taiwan have switched while Sin. and HK haven't, but is that really a variable?? Is democracy really that great a variable in deciding between prosperity and poverty?

Compare to India, for instance,... did democracy help alot? Did democracy help Germany in 1933? Is democracy helping Zimbabwe today?

quote: They did!! The Muslim empire streached from France to India at one point. And later on went to the wall of Vienna. Ask Greeks on this site if the Muslim Turks weren't imperialist. The only problem was that the Islamic world was falling at the same time the European world was rising, and it was that time that industrialization was discovered Islamic culture didn't prevent it from being the richest empire in the world in the 1200s. All the places that Islam conquered in Europe at that time (Spain, Siciliy) were by far the richest areas in the continent. And North Africa made Europe look like child's play.

Very true. Islamic (and Confucian) societies were way ahead of anything Europe could produce. The largest two cities in Europe in the Middle Ages, if I remember, were Muslim Cordoba and Byzantine Constantinople. Rome had barely 50,000 people (Venice later on went up to 100,000) when both Baghdad and Chang'an had 1,000,000+ people.

quote: But it hasn't gained much sway except under colonialism and recently in the impoverished state of affairs of the ME. After independance, nationalist movements were in charge and Islamism was a minor portion.

As I said, it's the social condition that affects culture, not the other way around. No one in 1000 would believe you if you said that soon Christianity would be tolerant and Islam would become "extreme" - yet what made this happen? It's socioeconomic development in Europe and the lack of it in the ME. That's what changes culture, and cultures can only be changed again by socioeconomic development.

	16-10-2002 04:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, if you are a terrorist ground in Indonesia, you really have a limited oppertunity to take out Americans.

So you attack those who "looks like" and "talks like" an American, i.e., Aussies and Kiwis? That would make this attack an act of racism. There's also the possibility that like the terrorists in Egypt in the 90s they see the presence of non-muslims in their country as an attack on their culture. That's racist too.

	16-10-2002 04:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove May I point out that the guys who bombed the clubs in Bali surely knew that very few of the casualties were likely to be Americans? In fact, they also almost certainly knew that the vast majority would be Australians and New Zealanders. Neither of those nations played much of a role in the Gulf War.

While we contribute the bodies, we are not the actual targets of such attacks. The attack on Bali was aimed at the tourism industry, which contributes major amounts of revenue to the Indonesian government. The people who contribute the bodies are incidental. The target was the Indonesian government.

The attacks on the US aren't really to make us feel helpless and powerless and make us give up. They are to inspire others. To show the people of Saudi Arabia tha the US can be hurt, that we aren't invincible, and that by extension, the government of Saudi Arabia can be overthrown.

One good thing may come out of the Bali blast. It reminds everyone that al-Qaeda is far from toothless and points out what an ass Bush is for ignoring it to carry out a persona vendetta against Hussein. So it may save more lives than it took.

	16-10-2002 05:18									#50
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Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, perhaps, the Mongol invasions also played a role in bringing the glory of Islam to ruin? I understand that Iran never really recovered from the devastation inflicted by the Mongol armies. This isn't just evident in the Middle East either; I've read that part of Russia's xenophobia stems from the utter devastation wreaked upon them by Mongolia as well.

Gatekeeper

	16-10-2002 05:45									#51
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Gatekeeper, I saw a Russian movie on the period of Mongol occupation. In the movie, a Mongol army goes to help a Cossack prince take a Russian town. On the way, the Mongol sack a Russia villiage. The movie shows the random rapes, tortures and killings by the troops. Everyone is killed or worse.

When they take the town, the real fun begins. They take the local bishop an bind his hands and feet. They then pore molten lead or tar down his throat. Finally they drag him through the streets behind a horse.

The rapes, tortures and killing are exhibited in the background as the the protagonist talk strategy.

This goes on and on and on. The movie is simply unbelievable and horrorific.

(BTW, I saw a recent Russian movie to the same effect - but this time the barbarians were the Nazi's.)

The Russians have indeed survived some really savage conquerors.

	16-10-2002 05:47									#52
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You should have seen this issue National Geographic from a couple of years ago. It glorified the Mongol reign over Asia, talking about how they brought science and philosophy to the lands they conquered. Glossing over, of course, the mountains of skulls outside Samara and Kiev.

	16-10-2002 06:00									#53
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Its not us versus them.

Its only a small minority of muslims who support extremists like OBL, just like its only a small minority who support the Klu Klux Klan or IRA. The Western world has its share of terrorists organisations, religious and political and otherwise.

The main difference today is with modern weapons and communications, small groups of violent people can make big impacts.

These muslim terrorist groups are a much bigger threat to muslim socieities than to Western countries actually.

	16-10-2002 06:32									#54
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I believe it will come to that, eventually, unfortunately.
Terrorism against westerners will continue, and become more and more active. The west will blame them for it, not being able to control them. They will blame us from giving them reasons, keeping them in poverty etc. Accusations go back and forth, terrorism continues. It doesn't matter if one side is wrong or right.
And eventually, the west really starts to defend itself by attacking with force, since we can do it, not the other way around.

	16-10-2002 06:48									#55
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quote: Please spare us your hypocrisy.

I'm sorry, but YOU don't know ME well enough to call me a raciest

If you can judge whats in my heart by me "yanking chains"........well then your a better man than I.

	16-10-2002 07:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood well then your a better man than I.

Even if I can't do that, I think this is a safe assumption.

	16-10-2002 07:12									#57
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If it will make you feel better....... then I will admitt your a better man than I.







better?

good



I just could not sleep knowing that I crushed a fragile ego

	16-10-2002 07:45									#58
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hmmm...hate?

I am hated because I am an American.

I am hated because I am white.

I am hated because I am Jewish.

I am hated because I am bigger than most people.

I am hated because I am eccentric.

I am hated because I won the lottery and got millions.

I am hated because I have a beautiful wife.

I am hated because my wife is not white.

People hate me for many reasons.

Even with all this hate on me I could never or could ever kill another human being.


This is what I find hard to understand.

It is much easier to kill for ones cause than to live up to them.


Acctually, I feel sorry for them.

	16-10-2002 08:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara While we contribute the bodies, we are not the actual targets of such attacks. The attack on Bali was aimed at the tourism industry, which contributes major amounts of revenue to the Indonesian government. The people who contribute the bodies are incidental. The target was the Indonesian government.

How do you 'know' this? Isn't it remotely possible that the bombing took place in Bali because that's where the largest concentration of non-Muslim 'Westerners' and Asians were going to be? After all- Bali is predominantly Hindu, and I'm sure Islamic extremists have learnt their lesson to some extent, after the politically disastrous bombings of American embassies/consulates in Africa, which killed a great many African 'non-combatants'.

If the blasts were aimed at the Indonesian government then the targets would have been better found in Aceh- where Indonesian special forces and army groups have been responsible for the kinds of torture and random killings found in other troubled parts of the Indonesian archipelago- like West Papua and East Timor.

	16-10-2002 08:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Read my responses to David Floyd and Gangerolf. The ME does not have a 1st millenium economy. They have 21st century economies. The problem is their economies are that of neo-colonies in the 21st century rather than imperialist countries in 21st century or even simply developed nations in the 21st century.

You got some pretty words there fella, now what in tarnation do they all mean? When you say middle eastern nations most folks (who actually care) would think of those countries along the northern coast of Africa, and then everything between the Bosporus Straits to the border of India. You're saying that these countries are all "neo-colonies"? What kind of colonies form power blocks (OPEC, UAR, Arab League) hostile to their alleged "colonial masters"? What kind of colonies manage to stage successful boycotts of their alleged overlords without suffering reprisals. What kind of colonies enter into alliances with their alleged repressors' enemies ( USSR - Egypt, - Syria, - Iraq, - Afghanistan, - Libya)? It seems to me that this whole concept of "neo-colonialism" is pretty much meaningless.

Oh, and let's see a list of the 57 countries the US has overthrown / intervened in in the past 57 years. Please do not include any examples of UN sponsored police actions (Korea, etc,), rescue missions (Grenada, etc.).