16-10-2002 08:37									#61
	Re: Will it come down to us v.s. them? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood What makes a person kill another human in the name of GOD?

For the same reason that Americans killed millions of innocent civilians in the name of democracy.

For the same reason that the Russians and Chinese killed millions of innocent in the name of communism.

For the same reason that Europeans killed millions of innocent civilians in the name of civilization.

The reason is: killing innocent people is easy when we divide the world into us and them.

	16-10-2002 08:48									#62
	Re: Re: Will it come down to us v.s. them? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai For the same reason that Americans killed millions of innocent civilians in the name of democracy.

Care to back up that statement?

	16-10-2002 08:58									#63
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quote: Care to back up that statement?

Yes, I'd like to see you back it up as well. I dare you...

	16-10-2002 09:14									#64
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Perhaps the real problem is people with too much time on their hands sitting around thinking up stupid ideas

And speaking of OBL, if he's such a martyr, why doesn't he become a suicide bomber himself? Notice how all the suicide bombers in Palestine are young Don't see too many middle-aged suicide bombers, now do we?

	16-10-2002 09:17									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Care to back up that statement?

The United States killed millions of innocent civilians during the Cold War in the name of democracy.

Do you really need a list?

	16-10-2002 09:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom How do you 'know' this?

You are terribly obtuse, aren't you? If you are weak, you do not attack your enemies directly, but obliquely. If you cannot take on the Indonesian government directly, you hit them where it will do the most damage. By killing Indonesia's tourism industry, they strangle the economy of the country and the ability of the government to raise funds. Are you so dense as not to notice that many of the targets of al-Qaeda since 9/11, including the attacks on the WTC towers themselves were attacks on economic targets?

	16-10-2002 09:33									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Oh, and let's see a list of the 57 countries the US has overthrown / intervened in in the past 57 years. Please do not include any examples of UN sponsored police actions (Korea, etc,), rescue missions (Grenada, etc.).

Here's a partial list of all the wars, interventions, and other nastiness the US has been involved since 1917. There is also a list there of the same stuff by the USSR. From 1917 to 2002 the US has was involved in at least seventy wars, coups, and foreign interventions (including WWII, where it wasn't the agressor). As I said, almost one a year.

Grenada wasn't a rescue mission. It was bullshit. The US didn't want to see another island in the Caribbean go Communist. If all they were doing was rescuing the students, they didn't need to overthrow the governement, kill the Cuban workers, and establish a new government.

The UN sponsored mission in Korea was just a fig leaf covering the US war.

According to a former member of the CIA, John Stockwell, the US military, the CIA, and our proxies killed 10 million people from 1945 to 1990. This doesn't include any deaths since then, so you could add another million people in Iraq.

	16-10-2002 09:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Lung And speaking of OBL, if he's such a martyr,

Who said he was a martyr? I don't recall anyone using those words.

	16-10-2002 09:56									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You are terribly obtuse, aren't you? If you are weak, you do not attack your enemies directly, but obliquely. If you cannot take on the Indonesian government directly, you hit them where it will do the most damage. By killing Indonesia's tourism industry, they strangle the economy of the country and the ability of the government to raise funds. Are you so dense as not to notice that many of the targets of al-Qaeda since 9/11, including the attacks on the WTC towers themselves were attacks on economic targets?

Not obtuse or dense, just astonished at your oracular powers and certainty. And I don't need lessons on the purposes or outcomes of urban terrorism. I've seen and experienced them first hand. Is the consulate of the United States in Bali a tourist/economic target?

Bali is a holiday destination- where non-Muslim Westerners and non-Muslim non-Indonesian Asian holidaymakers spend their time.

Your 'analysis' misses out the links between the Indonesian government and army, and Muslim extremists.

It's rather like implying that I.R.A. bombings in Northern Ireland were aimed at ruining rural tourism. If they wanted to strangle Indonesia's economy, there are plenty of bigger, better targets that unfortunately don't involve the spectacular disembowelling and incineration of non-Muslim civilians- logging concerns, off-shore oil and gas fields, urban targets in Djakarta and heavily populated Java. Of course, the problem would be the death of Muslim civilians and business interests, and we don't want to alienate our fan base, do we?

	16-10-2002 10:02									#70
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I have to agree with Che (again! ). I think the Bali attacks were directed at the Indonesian government and were fueled by xenophobia as well as religion. People seem to forget that the Muslim countries are being targeted by Islamic extreamists all the time (Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.).

	16-10-2002 10:29									#71
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Bali is a holiday destination- where non-Muslim Westerners and non-Muslim non-Indonesian Asian holidaymakers spend their time.

And where hundreds of millions of dollars poor into the country in a nice, easy target.

quote: Your 'analysis' misses out the links between the Indonesian government and army, and Muslim extremists.

The links definately exist. On the other hand, the army is also fighting Islamic extremist seperatists in Aceh so the links can't be that strong.

quote: It's rather like implying that I.R.A. bombings in Northern Ireland were aimed at ruining rural tourism.

Except the IRA isn't al-Qaeda. Different organization, different tactics. Muslim extremists have been targetting civilians for almost a decade, especially in Egypt, which is major source of Islamic militants. I'm pretty blaisé about terrorist threats, and I'm not going to Upper Egypt until these people are crushed.

quote: Of course, the problem would be the death of Muslim civilians and business interests, and we don't want to alienate our fan base, do we?

Al-Qaeda has had no qualms about attacking other Muslims. Have you forgotten the attacks in Nirobi and Dar es-Salam, both Muslim cities? HUNDREDS of muslims were killed to get at the US. Al-Qaeda has launched terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia against other Saudis! They are waging a terrorist war against the Kurds of Northern Iraq, who also happen to be Muslim. They were perfectly willing to kill thousands of fellow Muslims whom disagreed with the Taliban.

Islam isn't monolithic and al-Qaeda is perfectly willing to sacrifice the innocent to get at the "guilty." And they are more than willing to kill Muslims they see as less than perfect.

Bali was an easy target where they could do maximum damage for minimum effort. They will inflct more terror this way than by attacking an oil platform out in the Timor Sea, which may very well be guarded.

And incase you've forgotten, there have been terrorist attacks in Jakarta.

	16-10-2002 11:15									#72
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


'And where hundreds of millions of dollars poor into the country in a nice, easy target.'

Possibly you have Bali confused with Nice or Monte Carlo.

'The links definately exist. On the other hand, the army is also fighting Islamic extremist seperatists in Aceh so the links can't be that strong.'


If Islam isn't monolithic (and I have never asserted it is), then the Indonesian army and government aren't allied with ALL Islamic extremists or movements, yes?
I suggest you refer yourself to the links between Indonesia's vice president and Abu Bakr Basir.
The conflict in Aceh has as much to do with Aceh's resources ending up disproportionately in ruling Golkar Party member's pockets and Javanese bank accounts as it has to do with the imposition of a Sharia state.


'Except the IRA isn't al-Qaeda. Different organization, different tactics.'

Why, you're a quick study! I thought the killing of civilians in random acts of terror was stock in trade of urban terrorists.


'Al-Qaeda has had no qualms about attacking other Muslims. Have you forgotten the attacks in Nirobi and Dar es-Salam, both Muslim cities?'

Uh, no, and neither Nairobi nor Dar-es-Salaam is a 'Muslim' city- they're cities with populations made up of Christians, Muslims and animists. The religious divide in Tanzania (mainland) is pretty much a third Christian, a third Muslim and a third indigenous African beliefs, for instance. Zanzibar, however, is almost completely Muslim- 99% of its population, and is also a World Heritage Site and popular holiday destination. No bomb there...

'HUNDREDS of muslims were killed to get at the US.'

Unless you've seen statistics proving otherwise, I have yet to see a breakdown of casualties from the bombings in terms of religious beliefs. 250 people were murdered in Nairobi, and 11 in Dar es Salaam.


'Bali was an easy target where they could do maximum damage for minimum effort. They will inflct more terror this way than by attacking an oil platform out in the Timor Sea, which may very well be guarded.'

'They will inflict more terror this way..' and there you have it. What is the purpose of terror? To terrorize.
What it says to the citizens of the West and Singapore and Hong Kong and Taiwan and Australia, is that you cannot know where the next act of terror will be- at work or on holiday, you are a target.



'And incase you've forgotten, there have been terrorist attacks in Jakarta. '

And the targets were? The ones I recall, are Japanese Red Army attacks on American consulates and embassies.

	16-10-2002 11:15									#73
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This is one of the rare occasions when I disagree with Che. It’s too early to say who is responsible.

There are many groups within Indonesia that had a motive to attack foreigners. Indonesians opposed to the independence of East Timor may have wanted to strike back at Australians and that could include members of the Indonesian army. This may have been a fringe group attack similar to the Oklahoma City bombing. This may have been an attack against Megawati, whose power base is in Bali. Or this could be al Qaeda. I don't think anyone knows why now for sure.

	16-10-2002 11:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hong Kong and Singapore succeeded where others failed because the British Empire funneled trade through them. They both became a major finance centers and used that wealth to expand manufacturing.

To set the record straight, the success of both Hong Kong and Singapore has very little to do with "the British Empire funneled trade through them" but with a confluence of factors.

Neither of the places has anything to show for until some time in the '70s. Consider that Singapore has been an independent country for quite some time, that should put the Brit hypothesis to rest.

Hong Kong was first boosted by exports in toys, watches, calculators, and similar products. Being in the right place for re-exporting certainly helps too.