15-10-2002 19:59									#1
	Will it come down to us v.s. them? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yea I know what your thinking and where (you think) this is going.

Someone has gotta ask the question.
I will step forward and ask.

I have a hard time understanding the hate.

I have no hate in my heart because one is of a different faith than me or of a differnt color.

What makes a person kill another human in the name of GOD?

How can one stand before GOD and say to GOD that you love him/her but could not even love your fellow man?


It speaks of in the bible that the desendants of Ishmael will cause torment and pain on the other people of the earth.

So?

will it come down to us v.s. them?


BTW
If your not muslem or Arabic you fall into the "us" catagory.



I just dying to see who will scream that this is a hate thread

I just don't know


Is there hope?


Hey, enough of my ranting, felt good to git that off my chest tho

	15-10-2002 20:52									#2
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quote: What makes a person kill another human in the name of GOD? How can one stand before GOD and say to GOD that you love him/her but could not even love your fellow man?

They're brainwashed.

no democracy -> poverty -> no education -> fundamentalism -> brainwashing -> terrorism.

	15-10-2002 20:57									#3
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quote: It speaks of in the bible that the desendants of Ishmael will cause torment and pain on the other people of the earth.

where?

quote: will it come down to us v.s. them?

Haven't the west and islam always been in conflict?

	15-10-2002 21:05									#4
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Terrorism is a complex issue. First of all, it's not always caused by religious (Spain) or racial problem problems (Northern Ireland). Secondly, I am not sure whether it is born out of hate. I don't think it is. Thirdly, a lot of the crap is a direct consequence of US foreign policy - how could one fight terrorism without removing the major cause is way beyond me.

	15-10-2002 21:15									#5
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Well I suspect that the suicide bombers in Israel (and 11/9) do their attacks out of selfishness (not desperation), they are taught that when they die they come to paradise where they'll get 20 virgins and live like kings.

Last edited by Gangerolf on 15-10-2002 at 21:21

	15-10-2002 21:15									#6
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Gangerolf, OBL is not poor.

	15-10-2002 21:16									#7
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yeah, he's just insane

	15-10-2002 21:22									#8
	Re: Will it come down to us v.s. them? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood I have no hate in my heart because one is of a different faith than me or of a differnt color. What makes a person kill another human in the name of GOD? How can one stand before GOD and say to GOD that you love him/her but could not even love your fellow man?

Do you have hate in your heart towards the Bin Ladin? Could you truely say that you 'love' the Taliban?

The muslim terrorists believe that the US is evil and by contributing to the US you are yourself evil. They see the west trying to erode their way of life and system of beliefs. And lets be honest here -- we are and are proud of it.

At least I am, because I think it is right that we try and remove the religious oppression of women, that we encourage people to think for themselves and introduce new technology to make people's lives 'better'.

But the terrorists would disagree, saying that by going against the things they believe we are making their lives worse. We are trying to destroy their way of life and so we are their enemy. You hate them for trying to destroy our way of life, so why can you not understand how they feel?

After all, who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' is completely subjective.

So while I am most definitely one of 'us' I can understand why 'they' hate 'us' and want to destroy everything we stand for.

	15-10-2002 21:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood I have no hate in my heart because one is of a different faith than me or of a differnt color.

Really?

quote: Then again if I do speak my mind some toad out there will be offended and............ Fvck'em! Kill all them fvcking ragheads

Please spare us your hypocrisy.

	15-10-2002 21:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The muslim terrorists believe that the US is evil and by contributing to the US you are yourself evil. They see the west trying to erode their way of life and system of beliefs. And lets be honest here -- we are and are proud of it. At least I am, because I think it is right that we try and remove the religious oppression of women, that we encourage people to think for themselves and introduce new technology to make people's lives 'better'.

It's the white man's burden.

	15-10-2002 21:36									#11
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Yup. Fanatical Judeo-Christain Israel/America wants war with Fanatical Muslims. Muslims want war with Israel/America. An Atheist like me is just caught in between these millions of fools calling for eachother's blood.

	15-10-2002 21:53									#12
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Rogan is correct. It all comes down to destroying their way of life. cultures have done weird things when overcome by a dominant culture. Entire Indian (native-american) tribes have committed suicide. Many native-americans did resort to "terrorism". I use that word loosely since it wasn't really called that back then.

Basically this is a by product of our culture taking over theirs. So it is up to us to deal with it. Just like peole living in the American west had to do in the 19th century.

	15-10-2002 22:04									#13
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and we all know what happened to the indians...

	15-10-2002 22:07									#14
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Maybe a hundred years from now, Al Qaida will have their own reservations where they run casinos and sell homemade crafts and cigarettes.

	15-10-2002 22:10									#15
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make that 10 years, I want to be there to laugh at them.

	15-10-2002 22:38									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Terrorism is a complex issue. First of all, it's not always caused by religious (Spain) or racial problem problems (Northern Ireland). Secondly, I am not sure whether it is born out of hate. I don't think it is. Thirdly, a lot of the crap is a direct consequence of US foreign policy - how could one fight terrorism without removing the major cause is way beyond me.

Terrorism isn't an issue, it's a method. Terrorism is like guerilla warfare - it's meant to be the poor man's way of rendering a powerful army useless. It's risky, and it doesn't give immediate results, but if done properly it's almost impossible to combat.

	15-10-2002 22:57									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Gangerolf, OBL is not poor.

That's true, but you make the mistake of assuming that a person becomes a terrorist because of something that happens to them personally, rather than because of the misery they see around them. People become crusaders not for themselves, but for others. It is the poverty and misery in the Islamic world, which drives them to committ terror against those they perceive as responsible.

	15-10-2002 23:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It is the poverty and misery in the Islamic world, which drives them to committ terror against those they perceive as responsible.

why can't they see that it's their own culture that makes them poor?

	15-10-2002 23:06									#19
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Because it isn't.

	15-10-2002 23:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's true, but you make the mistake of assuming that a person becomes a terrorist because of something that happens to them personally, rather than because of the misery they see around them. People become crusaders not for themselves, but for others. It is the poverty and misery in the Islamic world, which drives them to committ terror against those they perceive as responsible.

I didn't assuming anything. Just said he was not poor in reply to Gangerolf who listed poverty as a reason for terrorism. I think there can be several reasons, but I haven't stated one yet in this thread.

	15-10-2002 23:10									#21
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Gangerolf said poverty was a cause, you said OBL wasn't poor, implying that poverty was not a cause of OBL's terrorism, when in fact it is. It is the poverty of other Arabs that drives OBL to wage war on the US (among other reasons).

	15-10-2002 23:11									#22
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Did he say that?

	15-10-2002 23:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it isn't.

well, I would think that discrimination of women (half the working force) has certain economic implications.

	15-10-2002 23:15									#24
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quote: where?

I believe the Bible said this around the area where it speaks about Jacob stealing Esau's birthright.

I'd have to check for sure, though, but I do know it's in there.

	15-10-2002 23:18									#25
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I saw OBL on tv once stating that the word of the Qur'an was not respected in many parts of the world. This seems to be one reasons for his actions, I've heard a commentator say.

I'm not so sure he's the noble guy you seem to think, chegitz. Fighting for the poor and oppressed of the world against the evil western world.

	15-10-2002 23:20									#26
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quote: People become crusaders not for themselves, but for others.

Not really. Most, or at least many, of the crusaders were either in it for the promise of glory and wealth, or were just bored at home, or were the third son in the family and thus expected to join the army.

	15-10-2002 23:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf well, I would think that discrimination of women (half the working force) has certain economic implications.

It might, if they were suffering from a shortage of labor, which they aren't. There are many reasons for the poverty of the ME, religion and culture aren't among them. Imperialism and the political and economic structures that were set up by imperialism have far more to do with the poverty in their world.

	15-10-2002 23:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Not really. Most, or at least many, of the crusaders were either in it for the promise of glory and wealth, or were just bored at home, or were the third son in the family and thus expected to join the army.

You know, crusader doesn't soley refer to the Knights of Western Europe who invaded the ME in the 11th to 13th Centuries.

	15-10-2002 23:22									#29
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quote: Imperialism and the political and economic structures that were set up by imperialism have far more to do with the poverty in their world.

Hmmm. So you argue that some of these states, absent imperialism, would be rich and strong nations today?

Personally, given the size of those countries and their relative lack of natural resources (other than, in some cases, oil and natural gas), I don't really agree.

	15-10-2002 23:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E I'm not so sure he's the noble guy you seem to think, chegitz. Fighting for the poor and oppressed of the world against the evil western world.

I don't think he's noble at all. Don't put words in my mouth.