28-10-2002 21:22									#91
	1894 update Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok, attached is minimap.

Only about 130 turns left. Don't know
A- if it is possible to catch Greece in score
B- it is possible to get China also in turns left.

Greece has 22 cities left and enough MI for 4/city. Well maybe there is time. Too busy playing and not enough time thinking.

China has 17 cities. Spy was captured and I didn't care to replant spy yet. In 1880 they had 75 MI and 20 MA. They were growing about 3/turn. Thus they would have about 6/city.

Strange AI military action.
China lands and plants cities. Greece is still strong enough to take them away after several turns, but Russia does not do anything but run it's 7-10 BS along the coast and bombard. No Russian landings are attempted even though Russia has short supply lines.


German play: first poorly and then ok
Landing Zone 2 worked well. A follow up about 7 turns later in Zone 1 was a disaster. Rather than planting settler took town to
north. {far NW town} Could not hold town, so loss a bunch of units.

Play recap:

Landed in Zone 2 in 1820.
1824 first panzer attack and start of GA.
1830..1844 took cities N & S of Zone 2 and city to N of Zone1

Horrible play, forgot I was playing at a higher level. In these 8 turns, lost 48 net units. Each turn I started with 6 fewer units than previous turn. I was losing MI and panzers everywhere to MA. I didn't start getting MA until 1852. Basically I loss 1/4 of my army.

Play after that was ok. I tried to use art and RA, with limited success. I slowed my advance by about 50% to preserve more units. Stopped baiting Greece with 3 MI over a worker. {I lose more than saved.} I thought MI plus jungle/hill bonus would be about even with MA. Unfortunately the MA multiple attack ability counted more than my terrain bonus. Even with a RA added to the worker bait stack, I still lost. Most annoying part was AI would not just capture workers, but would disband them so I lost both units and workers. Not good.

For the 62 turns I tracked military sized, 1772 to 1892, I averaged gain of 1.7 units/turn. More importantly relative gain/loss versus Greek military was +2.7 units/turn.


China's too lazy
I couldn't figure out at first why Greece keep on building good units. I only saw 2 oil resources and they were unroaded. Turns out China was ignoring a small size 4 city inside white square. See next image for blowup. It looks like they were just waiting for culture flip instead of invading. But there is oil under town center. It will take me time to get a third navy in place to take it out.

Ugh, China will pay for this blunder.


Don't know if anyone is still following this. But thought I owed posting the update in case anyone is following the progress.

-- PF

Attachment: d1894_map.jpg
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	28-10-2002 21:24									#92
	China gives Greece oil Remove this text

Here's the closeup of the city China is not taking. Lazy, lazy. lazy.

-- PF

Attachment: bengal.jpg
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	28-10-2002 22:33									#93
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Mattaba-- UN win is disabled like culture win as it comes too soon. == PF

Yeah just found out, I'm gonna try for a space race victory 'cause I have a tech lead now.
I was able to get ToE, Universal Suffrage and Hoover dam, the Hoover dam triggered my golden age so I think you have also made Germany industrious.
I saw that Greece had dropped troops in my territory so they obviously wanted war, I quickly made MPPs with everyone and drafted heavily, because I had really neglected military after the fall of Rome.
As expected the turn after that Greece attacked me and everyone was at war with Greece.
I held of the attack and built lots of Panzers and sent them to France( I had also right of passage with them)
to help them because their military was weak.
I have conquered one Greek city already and I will soon conquer another, after the MPPs expire, I will make peace with Greece and begin with the Spaceship.

	28-10-2002 22:45									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mattaba Yeah just found out, I'm gonna try for a space race victory 'cause I have a tech lead now.

Alas, also no space race win. Conquest or score wins available

quote: I was able to get ToE, Universal Suffrage and Hoover dam, the Hoover dam triggered my golden age so I think you have also made Germany industrious.

POST A SAV(s)!!
How did you get these??? I could not get one of them I was trying for Hoover but didn't have a chance.

quote: I saw that Greece had dropped troops in my territory so they obviously wanted war, I quickly made MPPs with everyone and drafted heavily, because I had really neglected military after the fall of Rome. As expected the turn after that Greece attacked me and everyone was at war with Greece. I held of the attack and built lots of Panzers and sent them to France( I had also right of passage with them) to help them because their military was weak. I have conquered one Greek city already and I will soon conquer another, after the MPPs expire, I will make peace with Greece and begin with the Spaceship.

Wow, again love to see several different years of your saved files. By the time I had Panzers, France was gone.

Or if not saves, more description of moves you made. It is a bit amazing how much further you got in the same game.

Basic questions, as I forgot:

1. where did you start?
2. what were the main things you changed about the way I had the empire laid out?
3. what were key trades you made?
4. about where did you set research levels?

Thanks

-- PF

	28-10-2002 23:10									#95
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by planetfall How did you get these??? I could not get one of them I was trying for Hoover but didn't have a chance.

I did some prebuilding and I quickly made railroads in my entire empire and quickly made factories in my most productive cities.
The AI is very poor with industrialization they give really factories a low priority, a human player can exploit this very much.
All right I got ToE, got the techs for the Hoover Dam, sold the AI atomic theory for a high price, I began with the Hoover Dam.
I was about to finish it in 2 turns and checked how far the AI was with Universal Suffrage, one AI was about to complete it in 5 turns.
Well I switched to Universal Suffrage and built it.
Because the AI civs still didn't have Electronics yet, they had to waste their production for the Universal Suffrage.
I built Hoover Dam after that.

	28-10-2002 23:43									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Or if not saves, more description of moves you made. It is a bit amazing how much further you got in the same game. Basic questions, as I forgot: 1. where did you start? 2. what were the main things you changed about the way I had the empire laid out? 3. what were key trades you made? 4. about where did you set research levels? Thanks -- PF

This post is gonna be long
1 I started from your 10 BC SAV.
The rest:
Well I immediately poprushed temples and libraries because of the low culture.
I set my science slider to 10% and sometimes only 1 scientist and bought my techs.
I soon changed to republic.
I started building horsemen to upgrade them to knights later on.
I got into the Middle Ages and researched chivalry myself
I upgraded some horsemen to knights with the cash I had and continued building knights.
When I thought I had enough I invaded India with (dunno the exact nubers anymore but...) about 6 swordsman 8 horsemen and 20 knights.
I swept through India, they didn't have many pikeman yet and I also quickly took their iron.
Made peace with India, they still had one city on an island close to China left.
In the war with India I got 2 leaders; I used 1 to build an army and 1 to build Bach's.
I was still buying techs from the other civs.
I had a short building period to deplete my war weariness and build some important buildings because I was way behind with that.
After that I invaded Rome wit a large combined cavalry/knight force, Rome was defeated easily as they only had legionairies for defense.
I also got 1 leader from this war and was doubting if I should wait to use it for ToE later on or used it now to build the FP in India.
I used it for the FP in India.
I began a building phase.
After steam power I quickly began building railroads.
I bought industrialization and began researching myself towards ToE.
I built factories in high production cities and started a prebuild towards ToE.
The rest is in my last post.
Here is a SAV of where I am currently:

	29-10-2002 01:34									#97
	More effective play techniques Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

For those who have not looked at the game, here is a summary of the more effective play techniques used by mattaba:

1. pop rush lib and temples for culture
2. science at 0..10% at least 1/3 thru middle ages
3. use horse & cavs, don't worry about legionairies. Create a force of about 30 mobile units
4. Only use 1 GL for army, use the rest for techs
5. prebuild factories
6. Industial Era build queue:
a. steam
b. industrialization
c. medicine
d. scientific method
7. ToE is high priority


I will try to compare saves and see if I see anything else.

A new game at this level is looking more and more inviting. So many lessons, so little time.

mattaba

If I missed anything important let me know. I naturally focused on RR and factories. Because you built your structure better, you played a better game.

My industrial build order was: 1) steam, 2) elect, 3) replaceable parts, 4) industrialization, 5) med, and 6) sci method.
You are right this order means usually don't get ToE. Before I have not had enough workers and so used Parts to get more work done. This game only was insurance with inf vs rifleman. It would have been better to get other techs first.

-- PF

	29-10-2002 03:27									#98
	Suffering from ads?

PF,

I would suggest that industrialization should be the 2nd industrial age tech you research. Factories are hugely important.

Typically, I do this:

1) Steam Power
2) Industrialization
3) beeline for Sci method
4) get replaceable parts while building ToE (usually partially pre-built already)
5) get atomic theory & electronics from ToE and build Hoover (usually prebuilt as well)

After that, I will probably go back and research sanitation (get that pop up!) and communism (police stations are nice). Then it's onward to motorized transport.

I use a palace and universal suffrage for the prebuilds, btw. Univ Suffrage is a nice wonder, and but ToE and Hoover are more important (though I usually get Univ Suffrage anyway, either via leader or just out-building the AI, which does not prioritize industrialization).

-Arrian

	29-10-2002 03:41									#99
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes Steam/Ind is usually a good way to go. Once you have factories you will bet more productionand soon get those Hospitals and build them quickly. Then you can build sufferage much faster.

	29-10-2002 22:59									#100
	Do you occupy or abandon/rebuild metros? Full PM-box? Change here!

Not much new to report. Worked thru most of the French cities and starting on the Greek cities. Russia finally invaded the Gk continent, but after capturing a city abandoned it instead of keeping it.

New Question-
I am starting to reach the Greek 20+ cities, when they fall there are usually 17+ resisters in these cities. Which is better:

1) abanding if no GW, and building new city will less Greek culture nearby, or
2) occupy and starve down city until there are one or two productive citizens?

If I use option 1, then pattern is a) take 1..2 cities, b) move thru open area to next city, c) move in new settler, d) abandon old city, e) plant new city, f) send some injured troops back for rehab, g) repeat... . Thus the movement thru the continent goes fairly smoothly about 1..2 cities/turn.

If I use option 2, the pattern is a) take a city, b) lose movement on 8 units until city is stable and has good citizens, c) send some injured troopos back for rehab. Thus it takes 1 to 2 turns/city as I don't create 12-16 new units each turn. {Production is about 6-8/turn}.

Additional problem is may not be able to conquer the world with about 100 turns left. Greek's have about 500 score point lead.

So, which is better: slow occupy cities or fast abandon and rebuild?

Thanks for the advice.

-- PF

	29-10-2002 23:08									#101
	Support Apolyton

I would raze and rebuild unless there is a wonder I want. I have no problem razing obselete wonders, though. So I vote option #1.

-Arrian

	30-10-2002 00:31									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Without regard to other factors both options are viable. I tend to choose one based on how I want to play that game. 17 resisters are going to take a bit of time to quell, so if the city has very little in the way of structures left, I wold be inclined to raze it. If I have SunTzu and will get a free barracks or one was captured in the city and I had a bunch of units to heal, then holding the city makes more sense.
Other factors are such things as, do I expect them to toss a bunch of troops at me? If so, I may be better of in the city for defense. If they have little left to counter with, I can move on sooner.
The point you mentioned about the game score and time may force me to chance tactics. Taking down their cities as soon as I can now may be the only option worth consideration. If you take 20 large cities from them, their score will not go up as fast. Once I get a buffer of dead land, I will slam in some settlers. I am presuming that you do not have other civs that can swoop in and settle or you can prevent them from getting to it.

	30-10-2002 00:42									#103
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Once I get a buffer of dead land, I will slam in some settlers. I am presuming that you do not have other civs that can swoop in and settle or you can prevent them from getting to it.

Thanks. It was a matter of the game "feeling wrong". I used to always raze. In pre-Monarch games where I knew a bit what I was doing, I used to pacify cities. Just was looking for confirmation that there were not hidden gotcha's in eliminating cities.

Game is won just not finished. Only 3 civs left. Everyone is fighting Greece. They have about 15-20 cities left. MPP with Russia expired. Not going to renew MPP with China. It doesn't matter if they plant a few cities in Gk Continent. They won't last long. Definitely plan to hit China next as they have been too anonying during this game. Russia's fate lies with Russia. If they leave me alone, they can live. If not, well there's the Greek experience.

I have about 50% of world power now. Greece has a handful of MA and about 80 MI left. Don't know exactly where others are. Guess China with about 75 MI and 20 MA. Guess Russia with about 55 MI and 15 MA.

Big disappointment
Cruise missiles. Never made them before. So I thought I might as well make a few. Talk about a land locked unit. Can't transport. Worthless. I was going to put them on a couple AEGIS to help remove the harbor on that lone Greek Island with the last oil. What a bummer.

-- PF

	30-10-2002 00:49									#104
	PTW aside Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Forgot to mention. Confirmed with local stores, PTW is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. If local price difference is not high, plan to pick up this week rather than wait for web orders.

-- PF

	30-10-2002 00:53									#105
	Support Apolyton

Cool, I was going to wait to look friday, but maybe I will check tomorrow. I do not use cruise either. They crack me up with that floating in the air animation.

	30-10-2002 01:20									#106
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I do not use cruise either. They crack me up with that floating in the air animation.

Me too. Someone suggested if navy vessel was adjacent to port, you could load cruise. No luck. Added load and unload to cruise actions for next game, just to see if can transport them that way.

If PTW is like previous patches, the first few games will be jerky as Firaxis does not carry forward user preferences.

-- PF

	30-10-2002 20:46									#107
	War Weariness -- How does it work? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok it is 1922 and finally have peace again. However since last war went on forever I have to have 20% luxuries to keep happiness up.

QUESTION-- How fast/slow does WW dissipate?

If I had war for last 80 turns, how does the WW effect work? Does it decrease arithemetically or geometrically, i.e., flat decrease line or decrease curve?

I don't have very many turns left, 124, and trying to figure out when is the best time to restart warfare.

Current game update at 1922:
Greece-- only island city of Bengal is left.
{see page 2 of this thread, time stamp-- 28.10.2002 09:24 }
Greece has 4 MA and 1 worker. Since China was being a dumpkopf, I will make them take are of Greece. If they want the oil, they will have to capture Bengal.

China-- One city in SW corner of former Greek continent. Sitting on dyes, but no port or airport yet.
In this game Stealth Bombers have hidden nationality and so China is running about 4 bombing missions/turn. I am just starting to counter with 1..2/turn. Need more bombers first. Also waited to move fleet away from Bengal and out where it is not vulnernable to air strikes. I was shocked yesterday to see that stealth fighters do NOT have intercept capability. I had just assumed that since they could see the invisibile Stealth Bombers they would be able to intercept. But had not tried it. I was tired of the 5% interception rate by Jets so was hoping Stealth Fighters would have a little more success. Even if they were at the 15..20% level for intercepts that would have been good. Alas, no joy. See frantic scrambling to change queue of all Stealth Fighters in production to something useful.

Russia--
Has not expanded empire at all. Still are polite to me unlike the annoyed/furious Chinese. But for all that, they are running 3..4 bombing runs/turn. Not targeting units, only roads. I am starting to upgrade air defense in neighboring areas. But it will take a bit of time. I only have about 1500 gold and have been using it to upgrade culture in former Greece.

-- PF

	31-10-2002 22:31									#108
	answer re WW Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't know the formula, but WW seems to dissipate in about 20 turns. China changed from commie to republic after that time, and they were involved in war about as long as I was.

Probably will let this thread fade away as PTW is imminent, unless I see anything interesting.

Only interest in this game now is 1) can I conduct a modern era warfare against 2 civs at the same time where each civ has about 70 MI and 25 MA, 2) how long will it take to make up the score deficit vs Greece. Only 100 turns left so have to get moving.

Thank you all for your advice and wonderful play suggestions. Hopefully can get PTW today, if not tomorrow.

-- PF