20-10-2002 15:38									#1
	Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union? Get a bigger avatar today!

In the „Importance of American lend-lease to Soviet war effort in WW II?” thread, Serb said about Lithuanians celebrating their SS veterans and treating their Red Army veterans as crap.

Serb seems to think that all East Europe countries should be thankful to Soviet Union for „eliberation” from evil Germany. Let see : Poland was stab in the back in 1939, Finland attacked in 1939, Baltic countries were occupied and anexed by SU in 1940, Romania forced to give Bessarabia in 1940 – what a friendly neighbour. From the way finns fought in the Continuation war, they wouldn’t join Germany in Barbarosa without a Winter War. In Romania there were strong critics for romanian army crossing the Nistru river (the 1940 border) – so I can say that even if Marchall Antonescu would help Germany against bolshevics, he couldn’t do it at that extent. For the whole communist period the veterans on the east front were treated (almost) like traitors.

Also in the Baltic countries (as to some degree in Bessarabia) russians were relocate thus changing the ethinc %. This is one of the (modern) reason for hate russians.

	20-10-2002 15:59									#2
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quote: Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

I assume the East European countries could have much better living standarts at the present moment, had they been independent all this time instead of being SU states.

	20-10-2002 16:06									#3
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All of them would be exterminated today as "infereior races" in accordance with Hitler doctrine.
If you feel that you don't have to be thankfull to 27 millions Soviet people who sacrificed their lifes in war against Nazism, it's your own ****ing problem. ****ing neo-Nazi.

And btw, Mihai you twisted what I said.
Btw, Bessorabia belonged to Russians untill you torn it from Russian in after-revolution crisis when Russia was under attack of 14 foreign agressors and have a terrible civil war.

Have a nice ****ing day.

	20-10-2002 16:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Serb All of them would be exterminated today as "infereior races" in accordance with Hitler doctrine. If you feel that you don't have to be thankfull to 27 millions Soviet people who sacrificed their lifes in war against Nazism, it's your own ****ing problem. ****ing neo-Nazi. And btw, Mihai you twisted what I said. Btw, Bessorabia belonged to Russians untill you torn it from Russian in after-revolution crisis when Russia was under attack of 14 foreign agressors and have a terrible civil war. Have a nice ****ing day.

Serb you were supposed to say:

hi ,

All of them would be exterminated today as "infereior races" in accordance with Hitler doctrine.
If you feel that you don't have to be thankfull to 27 millions Soviet people who sacrificed their lifes in war against Nazism, it's your own ****ing problem. ****ing neo-Nazi.

And btw, Mihai you twisted what I said.
Btw, Bessorabia belonged to Russians untill you torn it from Russian in after-revolution crisis when Russia was under attack of 14 foreign agressors and have a terrible civil war.

Have a nice ****ing day

	20-10-2002 16:26									#5
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quote: All of them would be exterminated today as "infereior races" in accordance with Hitler doctrine. If you feel that you don't have to be thankfull to 27 millions Soviet people who sacrificed their lifes in war against Nazism, it's your own ****ing problem. ****ing neo-Nazi.

Nah, all of them not killed, prolly.
Allies of the Germany, people of Finland and Hungary, would've prolly been "only" as slaves.

	20-10-2002 16:34									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Serb If you feel that you don't have to be thankfull to 27 millions Soviet people who sacrificed their lifes in war against Nazism, it's your own ****ing problem. ****ing neo-Nazi.

I am (born in Eastern Germany) thankful for the liberation from Nazi rule by Soviet people. However, I don´t see why I should be thankful for the fact that the USSR acted like a colonial power after the war in its sphere of influence (at least over a long time).

Next time you tell me I should be thankful for the "visit" of Soviet tanks in Berlin 1953...not to mention Budapest 1956 or Prague 1968.

And btw, I don´t hate Russians or Russia today (in fact I never did), thats all nonsense, but you could drop the "Soviet rule was a golden age for eastern europe"- attitude...

	20-10-2002 16:35									#7
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quote: Nah, all of them not killed, prolly. Allies of the Germany, people of Finland and Hungary, would've prolly been "only" as slaves.

So, you advocate that support of Nazism is right thing?

It's strange to see Finn who use Khazakstan flag. Where are you from?

	20-10-2002 16:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Serb you were supposed to say: hi ,

I forget to say hi?
Why should I?
It's the same as shake hand of man, who just said that nazi were a nice guys, while bad Soviet Russians were brutal occupants.
I don't mean you, but an author of this thread.

	20-10-2002 16:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I am (born in Eastern Germany) thankful for the liberation from Nazi rule by Soviet people. ... And btw, I don´t hate Russians or Russia today (in fact I never did), thats all nonsense,

Thank you.

quote: However, I don´t see why I should be thankful for the fact that the USSR acted like a colonial power after the war in its sphere of influence (at least over a long time). Next time you tell me I should be thankful for the "visit" of Soviet tanks in Berlin 1953...not to mention Budapest 1956 or Prague 1968.

You don't have to thankful for this. It is absolutly clear that SU acted as colonial power in its its sphere of influence. Colonializm isn't a good thing. I will not advocate that SU was right, even consider that it was in the midle of Cold war. I just want to remind that all powerful countries do this, (I realize that this not an excuse, but...this is the nature of the man. Humanity went through this many times and I guess we'll never learn untill we exterminate ourselves someday ).

However, if you read my post in thread Mikhai is mentioned you would see that I mean absolutely different thing. That some people consider Nazism as right thing. That some people create monuments dedicated to their local nazi and at the same time destroy monuments dedicated to honor of red army veterans and raze the graves of Soviet soldiers.

	20-10-2002 17:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I forget to say hi? Why should I? It's the same as shake hand of man, who just said that nazi were a nice guys, while bad Soviet Russians were brutal occupants. I don't mean you, but an author of this thread.

It was actually a joke, there is this panag guy on apolyton who starts every post with "hi ,"and ends it with "have a nice day", like this:

hi ,

Blaablaablaablaa
blaa

have a nice day

He is emperor, so he has posted a lot too, and I falsely assumed everyone knows him.

	20-10-2002 17:12									#11
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I ends my post with 'have nice day' only when I'm trolling.
If I use '****ing day' or smth of that kind, it menas I'm a tag annoyed, not to say more.

	20-10-2002 17:14									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Nah, all of them not killed, prolly. Allies of the Germany, people of Finland and Hungary, would've prolly been "only" as slaves.

I too think this is very likely, but I don't advocate this:

quote: So, you advocate that support of Nazism is right thing?

Completely different thing.

	20-10-2002 17:17									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I ends my post with 'have nice day' only when I'm trolling. If I use '****ing day' or smth of that kind, it menas I'm a tag annoyed, not to say more.

Well I think I was really funny, but I'm crazy and generally like my other jokes too more than other people

	20-10-2002 17:33									#14
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Where the heck is Tassadar5000 when you need him?


Well, I think Eastern Europe needed the "people's republic" as much as Vietnam need the North Vietnamese.

This is totally "after-the-fact" and subjective. I still think E.E. benefited from the Soviet Bloc.

	20-10-2002 18:01									#15
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quote: So, you advocate that support of Nazism is right thing?

No, I was just spamming. :P

quote: It's strange to see Finn who use Khazakstan flag. Where are you from?

I have my reasons for using the flag of Kazakstan, and I think that you wouldn't be that interested
from my boring explanations. Really, my explanation would be just lame.

	20-10-2002 18:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu No, I was just spamming. :P

I though so.

quote: I have my reasons for using the flag of Kazakstan, and I think that you wouldn't be that interested

I'm really interested. Please, tell me more. Why not flag of Nepal for example?

	20-10-2002 18:11									#17
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Hello,

No, Lithuania as an example shouldn't be thankful to USSR at all. Before WW2 Lithuania was a great capitalistic country. Litas was very stable currency, we built planes, we had a great uncorrupted government. USSR just destroyed everything, they killed and exiled our people, they sent Russians to our country, etc. No, we didn't benefited from USSR. They just destroyed everything. If not USSR we now would probably be like Netherlands or Switzerland - small but rich country, as we were before WW2. And now what we are? A poor country full of Russians, who are mostly criminals, addicts and mafiamen by the way.

Personally, I'd prefer to be occupied by Hitler than Soviet Union. I don't know why you think USSR is better than third reich. Perhaps for Jews it is, but not for Lithuanians. Under third reich there would be capitalism, thus economy would be better. Also, Hitler considered Lithuanians almost aryans, thus Lithuanians wouldn't be killed or exiled to concentration camps (unless they opposed the regime, but Soviets killed not only ones who opposed the regime, but also ones who were intelligent and ones who were rich and ones who had power). So no, Soviets didn't helped us for defeating Hitler. They didn't helped as at all, they just destroyed a nation.

	20-10-2002 18:17									#18
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quote: Personally, I'd prefer to be occupied by Hitler than Soviet Union. I don't know why you think USSR is better than third reich. Perhaps for Jews it is, but not for Lithuanians. Under third reich there would be capitalism, thus economy would be better. Also, Hitler considered Lithuanians almost aryans, thus Lithuanians wouldn't be killed or exiled to concentration camps

You don't have to say more, f*cking neo nazi.
It's your ****ing luck that I don't have time now, and it's your luck that we'll never meet face to face ****ing neo nazi.

	20-10-2002 18:32									#19
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Why am I neo-nazi? I just said that Lithuanians wouldn't be killed/exiled on that huge numbers under Hitler and economy would be better. I am NOT syaing Hitler occupation would be better than being independant, I am saying it would be better than SOviet occupation.

If I am neo-nazi for what I said, than you are a neo-stalinist (and you said even more on that).

	20-10-2002 18:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Where the heck is Tassadar5000 when you need him? Well, I think Eastern Europe needed the "people's republic" as much as Vietnam need the North Vietnamese. This is totally "after-the-fact" and subjective. I still think E.E. benefited from the Soviet Bloc.

Sure they did, that's why all of E.E countries are so damn rich in comparison to Finland . We were independent (well maybe we had tongues up SU arse to keep it that way) the whole time but E.E was not. But what if SU had not collapsed, would things be different this I don't know.

Maybe the other important point would be the economy of E.E before the collapse compared to Finland at that time, since E.E has had to renew their system after this, and this eats resources. I have little knowledge on this, but I assume Finland was much richer then.

Of course I'm assuming a lot here, thinking that E.E would have done the right choices about their economy on their own.

Seriously, I know there are history fanatics here on poly, and somebody could tell us how things really would have (most likely) been in this "what if" world. I know what I said could be totally off, but that is what I currently believe. Somebody set me straight please
I just don't believe Finland is doing better because we are better than E.E, which we are not, but because we had better system. Also to be noted SU helped (not intentionally I think) Finland to boost industry by demanding ships and other stuff or compensation after ww2, so we had to learn how to build them.
Btw Finland was very poor before ww2.
Is it better to compare E.E to Finland or to some W.E countries?

My words are backed with assumptions!

Edit: Well thanks to Sonic who pointed out some good info on his country, how about the rest of the E.E guys??

	20-10-2002 18:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Serb You don't have to say more, f*cking neo nazi. It's your ****ing luck that I don't have time now, and it's your luck that we'll never meet face to face ****ing neo nazi.

Serb, for gods sake don't get banned or something I think you provide energy to these discussions Then again I don't know if that is enough to get vacation.

	20-10-2002 18:42									#22
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Yes, before WW2 those four Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland) if compared by GNP stood like this:
1.Latvia
2.Lithuania
3.Estonia
4.Finland

Look to the countries now to see the "benefits" of Soviet occupation.

	20-10-2002 18:53									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Yes, before WW2 those four Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland) if compared by GNP stood like this: 1.Latvia 2.Lithuania 3.Estonia 4.Finland Look to the countries now to see the "benefits" of Soviet occupation.

I didn't know that Finland was last of these 4, well you learn everything new all the time.

	20-10-2002 20:33									#24
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I'm not from Eastern Europe but my observation is that the Soviet Union took more than it ever gave to the Eastern European countries. I'm not saying that the United States is perfect, but the Soviet Union never gave those countries a choice as to if they wanted to be apart of their so called alliance. The Poles, Chezchs, and Hungarians found that out first hand. What the Soviets ran was more like a protection racket then an alliance. That's all the opinion of an American looking across the sea. So take it as such.

	20-10-2002 21:00									#25
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First of all, I agree with Sonic. I would certainly prefer to see the Germans destroy the Soviet Union, before being destroyed themselves by the US.

Secondly, serb, will you admit that it would have been objectively better if the US and Britain gave the SU the finger, and drove as fast and as far east as they could to occupy territory before the SU?

	20-10-2002 21:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Where the heck is Tassadar5000 when you need him? Well, I think Eastern Europe needed the "people's republic" as much as Vietnam need the North Vietnamese. This is totally "after-the-fact" and subjective. I still think E.E. benefited from the Soviet Bloc.

Franky: The only way I can see that EE benifted from Soviet domination is that ethinic tensions were suppressed as in Yugoslavia. But as we saw there, they were never solved or addressed, they were merely frozen for a short time. As far as Vietnam, they needed North Vietnamese as much as they needed American meddling. Would South Koreans be better under the control of the North? Would Taiwanese be better under control of Beijing?

	20-10-2002 22:39									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Serb You don't have to say more, f*cking neo nazi. It's your ****ing luck that I don't have time now, and it's your luck that we'll never meet face to face ****ing neo nazi.

Yep, as all can see, anyone is much better of with a Russian bullying them then a Nazi.

On topic:

While the citiziens of Eastern European countries (and western Europeans as well as commonwealth and US citizens) could show respect for the Russian efforts in defeating Nazism, they have every right not to feel very thankfull for the misarable state Stalinism has left their countries in, nor for the fact that the Soviet Union made a secret pact with the Nazi's which led to the end of selfdetermination for the Poles, Lithuanians, Lets and Ests, and that in the subsequent conquest of the rest of eastern Europe, selfdetermination has not been on the soviet agenda.

	20-10-2002 22:42									#28
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David Floyd

As a Dane I am damned happy that the US/UK forces drove like hell and meet SU forces before they reached Denmark! (SU conqured Bornholm but gave it up :-) )

	20-10-2002 22:58									#29
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quote: Why am I neo-nazi?

Because, you said enough neo-nazi crap. Only for this statement you could be considered as neo-nazi:

quote: And now what we are? A poor country full of Russians, who are mostly criminals, addicts and mafiamen by the way.

Russians =criminals, mafia mans and addicts. It perfectly describe attitude of modern Pribalts toward Russians. I don’t see how it different from Hitler’s- Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Black, Asians and other inferior races are “human crap” which should be exterminated for sake of future perfect world.

quote: I just said that Lithuanians wouldn't be killed/exiled on that huge numbers under Hitler and economy would be better. I am NOT syaing Hitler occupation would be better than being independant, I am saying it would be better than SOviet occupation.

You, ****ing neo-nazi peace of ****. Without Soviets YOU would still BURN CHILDREN of Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Black, Asians and others humans (who weren’t humans from YOUR point of view) ALIVE. If Soviets didn’t crushed nazism, YOU, YOU who supported it (and as I see who still supports it today) would create new armies to conquer East and whole world with only one goal- TOTAL EXTERMINATION OF ALL INFERIOR RACES.
And you are saying that life in such society, a society that MAIN GOAL was KILLING, and TORTURING of human beings could be a right thing for your people, because you are “almost Aryans” and weren’t in nazi’s black list of inferior races?
In other words- I don’t care if I should burn a dozen of those children alive, because they are not humans in my opinion and because it’s good for my country’s economy. Great, ****ing logic. Keep up the good work ****ing peace of ****ing nazi ****.

quote: If I am neo-nazi for what I said, than you are a neo-stalinist (and you said even more on that).

What could you knew about my opinion about Stalin?
The father of my grandmother was a Colonel of Red army, a hero of civil war. He and his wife both were killed during Stalin’s purges in Red Army leaving my grandmother and her sister orphans. And you call me a neo-Stalinist? Not so long ago a file of my grand grandfather was shown to my grandmother’s sister. It was their neighbor who wrote anonymous letter to NKVD and because of who their father and his wife were arrested and killed. And you know what? The sister of my grandmother forgave him and said- “only God could judge him”. She, my grandmother, me or any other member of my family doesn’t hate grandchildren of this man.
This is you and your people’s main problem- you are unable to forgive. You full of hatred toward modern Russians, you learn your children how to hate modern Russians properly in your schools (and you, little neo-nazi **** is a living evidence that it’s true), you treat people with Russian roots who live in your country as ‘human crap’, as second-rate humans. Keep up the good work, ****ing nazi, someday we or someone else will teach you a new lesson, because you were unable to learn previous lesson- that nazism is the greatest evil. It seems that 3 Baltic States are the last fortresses of nazism on this planet, because history teaches you nothing.

	20-10-2002 23:06									#30
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quote: Serb, for gods sake don't get banned or something I think you provide energy to these discussions Then again I don't know if that is enough to get vacation.

I’m saying the truth, if I could be banned for truth, fine then I don’t want to be here. I realize that my words are mixed with good portion of personal insults, but there is nothing I can do about this when I hear such neo-nazi **** speeches. I hate nazi and I’ll never be nice or polite when talking with them.
And btw, I just returned from two weeks vacation.So it doesn’t scare me much

quote: Edit: Well thanks to Sonic who pointed out some good info on his country, how about the rest of the E.E guys??

And you call this neo-nazi bullshit a good info? His speech full of arrogant crap- great capitalistic country, second GNP, great currency, small but rich country.
Tell us nazi-sonic, if you were so great, then why the hell you didn’t fought for your independence like Finns done? Why you let bad Soviets to annex you without a single shot? Perhaps aside Finns who acted as real warriors, you acted as bunch of cowards, or perhaps you wanted to be annexed? Tell us, I see only those two versions. Perhaps you will give us an explanation?