23-10-2002 17:52									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Sometimes I hit the wrong key on the numberpad and send a unit to the wrong square. I've been known to re-do that turn. Is that cheating?

What do you think happens when you make a mistake in real war?

	23-10-2002 20:07									#62
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quote: Originally posted by georges bonbon What do you think happens when you make a mistake in real war?

In a real war, you do not command your troops with keystrokes you can mess up with that easily.

If I was able to control my troops in Civ3 by voice, I would hardly ever make a mistake like that...

	23-10-2002 22:23									#63
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I voted that I cheat everytime I wan't, and that's what I do exactly. If I don't want to, I won't and when I feel like it, then I cheat. And here by cheating I mean realoding. If I forget to prevent civil disorder, I many times cheat and reload, if I don't it's usually that I'm just too lazy to play the previous turn again.

And what comes to pressing the wrong button, this game is not about pressing buttons, _there are a lot of games like that_ but TBS is not and has never been about that. Trying to prove it matters, comparing to real life only hurts your own argument because like vondrack said

quote: In a real war, you do not command your troops with keystrokes you can mess up with that easily.

When you have a intention, a plan, that is TBS but not pressing keys. Oh btw I almost never press the wrong key so

	24-10-2002 10:07									#64
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These threads are always a pain to read. So many people use them as an excuse to massage their ego by bragging how superior they are for 'never' cheating. Right. The point of the game is to have fun. So, at least in single-player, cheat until it makes you feel warm 'n fuzzy.

	24-10-2002 19:30									#65
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i never cheat in serious games.

... well actually last time i did it was about half a year ago, when i played my first (and only) huge map game and fùcked up by abandonig my best city (instead of renaming it)

	24-10-2002 20:33									#66
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Wow, I can't believe all the people that don't cheat. I'm sure people cheat more when they're just learning the ins and outs of the game. Later on, when your outcomes are more assured there is simply no reason to. I hardly cheat, but lately I've been attempting to make the jump up to Emperor and I'm afraid my ethics have gone out the window. Hey, the computer gets to cheat, why can't I?

	24-10-2002 21:06									#67
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack In a real war, you do not command your troops with keystrokes you can mess up with that easily. If I was able to control my troops in Civ3 by voice, I would hardly ever make a mistake like that...

And orders have never been misinterpreted by troops in combat? Communications never break down?

	24-10-2002 22:18									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kiev These threads are always a pain to read. So many people use them as an excuse to massage their ego by bragging how superior they are for 'never' cheating. Right. The point of the game is to have fun. So, at least in single-player, cheat until it makes you feel warm 'n fuzzy.

One cannot know their motives, but I have to admit I get the same feeling when reading these

	24-10-2002 22:36									#69
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm And orders have never been misinterpreted by troops in combat? Communications never break down?

Someone just _had to_ say this again omg
For your info, if you hadn't noticed civ 3 is far from real life, in civ 3 you are not a leader, you are closer to being god. They didn't include weather in civ3, or stupid troops, they are all the same. "But I am xerxes, really the game says so!". The communications break down would be bad ram btw :P
The comparison is wrong also in the sense that pressing the wrong button is giving wrong information, not giving right information that will be misinterpreted.

	24-10-2002 22:56									#70
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm And orders have never been misinterpreted by troops in combat? Communications never break down?

We could play this verbal table tennis for ages... both sides would probably raise good points for their case. But why? The topic here is cheating. Do you consider correcting a miskeyed move cheating?

My point is: this is a game. It has rules. Basically, whatever I do, the opponent should be able to. Whatever the opponent does, I should be able to. That's my perception of fair play. There are limitations to this approach when your opponent is an AI, but I do my best to get as close to this as possible.

If we somehow incorporate these random command failures into the gameplay, fine. If the AI wants to move their pikemen one tile north, but those poor sods "misinterpret" the order and move south, okay. Let it be. I will live with it and consider my miskeyed moves fall under this category...

I do agree that threads like this are not fine reading. However, I equally dislike people bragging about "never cheating" as much as people arguing that just about anything is cheating in order to make themselves feel better.

Do not get me wrong, I am not addressing anyone specific. I just find commenting posts in this thread rather unfortunate. IMHO, the posters that added few words explaining what they meant by their vote, did just fine. georges bonbon didn't clearly define what he considered cheating (his examples were rather extreme cheating). Hence, the poll itself has been very vague from the very beginning. Belittling others for their definitions of cheating is useless. Read it, make your opinions, but kindly refrain from commenting, please. A possibly interesting thread will degenerate otherwise...

Thank you

	24-10-2002 23:00									#71
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Originally posted by Kiev
"These threads are always a pain to read. So many people use them as an excuse to massage their ego by bragging how superior they are for 'never' cheating. Right. The point of the game is to have fun. So, at least in single-player, cheat until it makes you feel warm 'n fuzzy."

I would say that since this is the web, people can say anything and they may or may not be telling the truth as they see it. I just do not interrupt someone saying they don't cheat with bragging or a feeling of superiority. For one thing, my perception of anyone here is distored by my not really knowing anything about them. I would tend to give most the benefit of the doubt. I do feel many here are superior players and very helpful and I have learn from them. They also seem like good people, but they they could the Son Of Sam for all I know.

	24-10-2002 23:31									#72
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis The comparison is wrong also in the sense that pressing the wrong button is giving wrong information, not giving right information that will be misinterpreted.

Okay, no leader ever gave the wrong order and had it executed.

Yes, I'm digging myself in deeper.

Actually, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't think that correcting a miskey is cheating.

Here's a question for you, though. If you pressed the wrong key in a MP game what would you do?

	24-10-2002 23:49									#73
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Here's a question for you, though. If you pressed the wrong key in a MP game what would you do?

Heh... I had a whole paragraph on this in my previous post, but deleted it before submitting the post... As far as the merit of cheating is concerned, it would still not be cheating.

But it's impossible to let players correct miskeys (and "miskeys") in this way in MP - only people that know and trust each other could agree to allow that. The more competitive a player, the more he would be tempted to misuse such arrangements. The only way to go is: no miskey corrections. Getting back to what I said I considered "fair play", this is perfectly okay: every human hits a wrong key from time to time. None will be allowed to correct the error. Applies for each and every one. That's fair.

	25-10-2002 02:42									#74
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Okay, no leader ever gave the wrong order and had it executed. Yes, I'm digging myself in deeper. Actually, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't think that correcting a miskey is cheating. Here's a question for you, though. If you pressed the wrong key in a MP game what would you do?

In MP one should generally play by the rules. I would allow someone to move his units again if it was not too much truoble, and like vondrack said

quote: - only people that know and trust each other could agree to allow that

If I press wrong key, I simply have to accept it in MP and not expect the opponent to have the same ideology that I have. Just be extra careful in MP.
About the heavy

quote: Okay, no leader ever gave the wrong order and had it executed.

Yes you are right, leaders have given wrong orders and had them executed.

quote: Yes, I'm digging myself in deeper.

Just wait I'll go get ladders for you!!

	07-11-2002 14:12									#75
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73 votes so far.

Come on everybody, we need votes.

	07-11-2002 16:11									#76
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I'll vote "I never cheat".

I only reload to see "What if..." and learn from that.

	07-11-2002 17:22									#77
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Kudos to the 7 who had the honesty to answer "I cheat whenever I like", even though it is anonymous.