22-10-2002 19:45									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse France also has the most horrendous road death toll in Europe

Never ever, in fact don't even contemplate, drive around the Arc de Triomphe. A massive roundabout where you make your own lane because there are no road markings.

	22-10-2002 19:51									#92
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Oh yeah the Arc - I've been there a few times - just makes you shake your head. Huge dangers if you are on foot too - cars dart out and make turns from nowhere.

We've actually sent road safety experts to France at their request to try and help them because their death toll is the worst in Europe and ours is now quite low.

	22-10-2002 20:00									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Never ever, in fact don't even contemplate, drive around the Arc de Triomphe. A massive roundabout where you make your own lane because there are no road markings.

I agree - I have driven round the Arc de Triomphe and it is rather nasty.

Having said that though, I just got back from Greece, where I hired a car to drive to a friend's wedding (in the back of beyond) and I have never seen traffic like it. 500 times worse than anything in Paris! even going along a straight piece of road (where you have priority) you still have to dodge and swerve to avoid cars that cut you off or pull out without looking. Absolute nightmare!

	22-10-2002 20:03									#94
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And I thought the Italy had the worst death toll...
Maybe it is one year France and Italy the next.

Anyway, going trough France there was a straight country road, a couple of miles, and three lines. The best part was that the middle lane was used by both sides for overtaking (and was marked as such with split lines marking all the lanes) .... never seen that before or after....

	22-10-2002 20:08									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Don't you believe it! I was once fined in the UK and given 3 points on my licence for no good reason. There were two villages about half a mile apart. The limit was 40mph in the villages and the road in between them. Since there was absolutely nothing in between the villages (just fields), I didn't realise the speed limit was still 40. I was stopped by a speed trap which marked me down at 48mph. There was nothing else on the road. I was really respectful to the cop - very polite - and the **** still gave me a ticket. Looking back, I wish I had shouted abuse at the little turd. At least it would have made me feel better.

he he ... call it bad luck.

I have had only good experiences here, and considering I am coming from Croatia... this is heaven.

A couple years back a friend of mine was stopped by police for not having the seat belt, but at the same tame his road tax and insurance were out too... and the cop let him off just with the normal fine, with him having to report with insurance and road tax to the police within a week with no charges well that was most generous, but I doubt they are still so linient, as I have read that the politicians are trying to make them rougher, and more strict.

	22-10-2002 20:08									#96
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http://www.speedtrap.org/stetlaws.htm

there they are, Illinois ain't one of em.

The states with Speed Trap Laws are
Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Michigan, Missouri, and Texas.

Oops, 7 states.

	22-10-2002 20:15									#97
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Also, please note Washington State law's definiton of a Speed trap is what I said it was originally, a time distance calculation. I read a whole bunch of State law RCW's once when I was contesting my first ticket.... (I took it to court for the experience :P ).

BTW, I lost. But I did get to cross examine the officer. Real tough since I really was going 30 in a 20.

Last edited by NeOmega on 22-10-2002 at 20:24

	22-10-2002 20:36									#98
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega http://www.speedtrap.org/stetlaws.htm there they are, Illinois ain't one of em. The states with Speed Trap Laws are Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Michigan, Missouri, and Texas. Oops, 7 states.

An interesting site... but very misleading. Out of the 11 states, only California really has a no speed trap law.
And even the California law allows for the setting of speed traps as most people would define them as long as they follow specific guidelines and the speed of the road is determined as a legal limit.

The other states you mention just have rules on how you can set the speed limit in certain areas, not that you can't enforce legal speed limits or how you enforce them. Or that you can't use tickets to make up more than "X" percent of a cities inflow of revenue, but not that you can't have speed traps. And some do say that the radar guns have to meet certain standards, but not that they can't be used.

I will grant you the Washington example in regards to timing... but it's only ONE state... yet they can still use radar, so what's the difference.

So even after reading that site (and what a snooze it was, especially the california section)... No state really has any laws specifically against the use of speed traps, just how they can be done.

If you are speeding, and the limit set is a legal one, you can be pulled over...

	22-10-2002 20:49									#99
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You know, I have never visited that site before, but I found I am not the only one who has noticed increased Wa state trooper activity during the end of the month. It may have something to do with the fact the WSP doesn't like to issue tickets, but also doesn't want to lose their jobs.
(I also noticed while working graveyard at a Chevron station many more people being pulled over by WSP towards the end of the month.)
Also, I did not start out hostile to the officer. She started lecturing us with her voice raised and angry, as if we were going 45 in a school zone. Her conduct oozed someone who flipped on her lights and waited for the first one to pull over.... they must have a guilty concience, and therefore they are. Just my assumption but.....

Also, now I am remmebering my conversation with Jo-Anne, (the ex-cop I worked with). She told me that the way the WSP quota system works is, every year, your per month quota increases. So if you issued 150 tickets in June your first year, you have to issue 160 in the June of the next year. (the exact number I am not sure of). As you can see, veteran officers might start to have a tough time keeping up. (Even though she seemed to be a rookie, she acted as if she wasn't sure what she was doing.)

	22-10-2002 21:03									#100
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By your own admission, the car you were in was indeed speeding... granted, not by much, but still speeding.

As far as grumpy cops go... cops have bad days too.
That doesn't mean that they don't have a clue or are doing something wrong... it could just be that the cops boyfriend gave her grief earlier

The last time I got pulled over, the cop had one of those attitudes... Upon seeing that, I had not intention of pissing the guy off any more than he obviously was. I went out of my way to be VERY polite and respectful. In the end, he gave me a warning instead of ticket (which really means nothing since they aren't even recorded anywhere) and actually told me to have a nice day when he gave me my license back. Considering I was doing 49 in a 35 mph zone... I felt very lucky to get away with it.

	22-10-2002 21:09									#101
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor The police act like you're so wrong for breaking the laws and it's so horrible, but they wouldn't be too happy if everyone started following the laws. They wouldn't be able to fill their quotas. What you do to create more jobs in the government? Make more things against the law!

Do actually know a cop?


One trooper explained to me that many of the troopers are *******s because they go through as tough or tougher training than the military and after all the training and time spent learning, they are put on traffic duty.

The official quotas that you speak of do not exist. They do have quotas for what they call contacts. They must come into contact with the public a certain amount of time to show that arent pulled over somewhere eating or sleeping. This is mainly in rural areas i suppose. In a town about 20 miles from here they had a genuine speed trap. about 55% of the towns income was comming from court fees and tickets. A law was passed that forbide any city from getting more than IIRC 5% from court fees and tickets. Two years later the town still hadnt complied so the State Police moved in and city police was barred by law from issuing tickets on the state highway through town.

I have been pulled over many times for speeding and have only gotten two tickets in my entire life. You know why? Because i dont start *****ing or explaining as soon as the guy walks up to me. I know I was speeding, he knows i was speeding. I then get off with a warning. Mostly verbal. I have been told a cop knows if he will be writing a ticket within the first minute of the conversation with the motorist. Most of you talk your way into a ticket with your attitude. Most of the time it's not a matter of your car going to fast but your mounth.

	22-10-2002 21:19									#102
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[quote]And last but not least... you don't sound like you were being "polite" in the example you give... If somebody like you was giving me that kind of crap if I was in the cops position, I would have treated you with the same lack of respect that you were showing them[quote]

He was not being disrespectful. Cops aren't anything special, and if they are being dicks they should be called on it. If he was not speeding (as he implied originally but later said he was), the cop had no right to pull him over, or ticket him for speeding.

One should not be respectful to a police officer when that officer is abusing their power.

	22-10-2002 21:21									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Finnish speeding tickets are tied to income. Therefore, one speeding rich guy was fined 103,000$. Considering the 'mild rape' trial way back then (guy let off lightly because the act only took 5 minutes), traffic fines seem to be the only thing where Finnish law actually is tough.

This is a good law. This gets rid of the rich bozos who blantantly flaunt traffic laws because the fines are less than what they spend on a bottle of wine.

	22-10-2002 21:21									#104
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quote: One trooper explained to me that many of the troopers are *******s because they go through as tough or tougher training than the military and after all the training and time spent learning, they are put on traffic duty.

That's no excuse to take it out on innocent people. If they don't like their job, they can quit, but being an ******* to innocent people isn't acceptable.

	22-10-2002 21:23									#105
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd [quote] One should not be respectful to a police officer when that officer is abusing their power.

Playing it smart, perhaps?

	22-10-2002 21:25									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I have been told a cop knows if he will be writing a ticket within the first minute of the conversation with the motorist. Most of you talk your way into a ticket with your attitude. Most of the time it's not a matter of your car going to fast but your mounth.

I've heard the same things from my cop friends.

They also say, that the best thing you can do when being pulled over is to put both hands on the steering wheel the minute the lights go on behind you... They watch your shoulder blades... If they see them twist, it usually means that you are trying to hide something. The minute they see that, they get really suspicious. Remember, for all they know, anybody they pull over could have a gun, and be ready to use it...

As far as quotas go... There are such things. Some cops do need to write so many tickets, just as you mention that some have to report contacts. But as I said in an earlier post... people speed, and no cop I know has EVER had a problem meeting any set quota in a legal fashion.

	22-10-2002 21:26									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ming An interesting site... but very misleading. Out of the 11 states, only California really has a no speed trap law. And even the California law allows for the setting of speed traps as most people would define them as long as they follow specific guidelines and the speed of the road is determined as a legal limit.

Ming: Part of the way Arkansas laws determine if a city is abusing police powers by setting up speed traps is by limiting the % of income that can come from traffic fines and court fees. That usually is a good indication if the city in question is a small one. Tyronzia and Gilmore are both under 500 in population and most of their revenue came from outsiders paying court costs and tickets. Even now after the state police came in there are still problems but not as bad. A person I know in the Sheriffs department tells me that most of the warrents she processes are for failure to appears for traffic violations. Those in the Sheriffs department despise the the local cops for that.

	22-10-2002 21:29									#108
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd One should not be respectful to a police officer when that officer is abusing their power.

As you mentioned, in this case, it was admitted that the person was indeed speeding, so there was no abuse.

But a tip... even if a policemen is abusing their power, that's probably the best reason to respect him. He has already proved to be a jerk, and pissing him off even more is NEVER a good idea.

If they are in the wrong, fight it out in court where you have a chance to win... pissing a cop off in the field is probably the stupidest thing you can ever do, even if you are innocent.

	22-10-2002 21:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd [quote] One should not be respectful to a police officer when that officer is abusing their power.

If you have a complaint then make it and go to court. The more you show your ass, the more he will show his. And I'm betting that you will come out on the loosing end of it

	22-10-2002 21:33									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Ming: Part of the way Arkansas laws determine if a city is abusing police powers by setting up speed traps is by limiting the % of income that can come from traffic fines and court fees.

I did indeed mention that some states do limit that percentage in the same post of mine you quote.

Again... it doesn't mean that they can't set speed traps, it just means that the city can't do it for the sole purpose of funding their budget

	22-10-2002 21:36									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I did indeed mention that some states do limit that percentage in the same post of mine you quote. Again... it doesn't mean that they can't set speed traps, it just means that the city can't do it for the sole purpose of funding their budget

Yeah your right. The towns that I mentioned are still bad about doing that. The state authorities just kept them off the state highway that went through their town and away from the tourists


edit: it was actually officials from Jonesboro (my city) that raised hell about it because business people and tourists were being ticketed between here and Memphis (about 40minutes away)

	22-10-2002 21:36									#112
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Ok, saying "you should get a ticket...because you broke the law!!!" even if its a stupid law, is a horrible argument. That's like making chewing gum illegal, then when everyone is arrested or fined, you saying "well they deserved it, they knew it was illegal!" Anyone see a hole in this logic?

	22-10-2002 21:37									#113
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quote: As you mentioned, in this case, it was admitted that the person was indeed speeding, so there was no abuse.

Agreed, although that was no my initial impression.

Although, in the general sense, such as cops trying to make you let them search your car and things of that nature, one should not let them just as a matter of general principles (the idea that if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry about it is idiotic).

quote: But a tip... even if a policemen is abusing their power, that's probably the best reason to respect him. He has already proved to be a jerk, and pissing him off even more is NEVER a good idea. If they are in the wrong, fight it out in court where you have a chance to win... pissing a cop off in the field is probably the stupidest thing you can ever do, even if you are innocent.

You are correct in a sense, because of laws against resisting police officers. Unfortunately, innocent people are not allowed to fight back physically against police abuses and excesses, as they could against any other person. But we've had this discussion before, and if it gets started again I'm just gonna get labeled as a cop-killer by all the word-twisters here.

	22-10-2002 21:41									#114
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DF...
I've never labeled you that... and yeah, in the field, their is nothing you can do legally... But to fight back or to start abusing the officer will only make the situation worse. Not fair, but it is reality.

Save it for court...

	22-10-2002 21:47									#115
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quote: I've never labeled you that

I know. I believe it was Guynemer, could be wrong though.

quote: and yeah, in the field, their is nothing you can do legally... But to fight back or to start abusing the officer will only make the situation worse. Not fair, but it is reality.

Which is the problem, in my opinion.

	22-10-2002 21:50									#116
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quote: Originally posted by 1 Ok, saying "you should get a ticket...because you broke the law!!!" even if its a stupid law, is a horrible argument. That's like making chewing gum illegal, then when everyone is arrested or fined, you saying "well they deserved it, they knew it was illegal!" Anyone see a hole in this logic?

And what hole is that...

Besides being a bad analogy... what's your point?

If you break a law, you should suffer the penalities.
If you don't like the law, work to change it in a legal fashion.

Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean that you can break it and not be responsible for your actions. I think some speed limits are insane... but I also know that if I break them, and get caught, I will get a ticket.

That's the law... deal with it.

	22-10-2002 21:56									#117
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quote: If you break a law, you should suffer the penalities.

So, speaking from a "right and wrong" perspective, should people fighting for civil rights have been punished for violating the law? Should Rosa Parks have been prosecuted, for example?

Or, should people have been prosecuted for drinking during Prohibition?

Both are situations where the actions were clearly illegal, but the laws were clearly wrong.

	22-10-2002 21:58									#118
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Which is the problem, in my opinion.

While it is a problem in my opinion as well... I can see why it is this way. A policeman is only doing his job. In MOST cases, you are being arrested for a reason, and in a legal fashion. In many of these cases, policemen are subject to abuse and physical harm, possibly even death for just enforcing the law in a legal and reasonable fashion. They need this protection!

There are bad apples in every profession... and yes, there are some cops who do not operate within the letter of the law. But even in those situations, it's better to take it... and not make matters worse. I've been manhandled by cops in the past (my long hair days), but me fighting back or heaping abusive language on them would probably have only made things worse... it's just not smart. I do as I'm told, I do with it respect... and I can always sue their asses in court later if they were in the wrong.

	22-10-2002 21:59									#119
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I fail to see, however, how the speed limit laws are in any way wrong. It is unjust enforcement I don't like, not the laws themselves.

	22-10-2002 22:03									#120
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quote: A policeman is only doing his job. In MOST cases, you are being arrested for a reason, and in a legal fashion. In many of these cases, policemen are subject to abuse and physical harm, possibly even death for just enforcing the law in a legal and reasonable fashion. They need this protection!

True, but this protection would already fall under laws against assault, murder, etc., wouldn't you say?

On the other hand, if you are innocent, and being harrassed or abused - for example, innocent bystanders or even innocent protestors who are swept up, hit with tear gas or weapons during various protests - then you should be able to fight back.

Specifically, let's say I am participating in some sort of anti-government protest, which is within my rights to do, but some of the people in the protest begin to act illegally and violently. The police, who are already there, basically come in with riot gear and tear gas, and use it against everyone. Shouldn't I, who has done nothing illegal, be able to fight back against these actions, which are basically assault against me?