23-10-2002 03:46									#1
	Civ3 settings to increase realism Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Realism refers here to a civ3 game that simulates the history and conditions of humans on Earth! Many of us like to play a game that is realistic so we can really build our version of history of humans on Earth!

Many of the features of civ3 are not realistic. These need to be turned off or adjusted. This thread is to collect ideas from players who like realism and who want to play a realistic game. Once these ideas are presented, I will collect them in one big summary!

Again the question is: What do you do in order to play a civ3 game that is much like human conditions and has a high level of realism?

	23-10-2002 03:53									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The comments in this thread can either be a "how to set the mod or game to increase realism" or an "item to add on the wish list" for Fyraxis so they can provide features/control for players to play a realistic game.

It helps if you start your email with an indication if your comment is to be added on the wish list of civ4 or is an actual setting of civ3!

	23-10-2002 03:59									#3
	Terrain Types and Realism- A Wish List Put an end to popups!

1) In civ2, rivers gave extra moving points (like roads). This makes sense. When the American west was discovered, only river basins were accessible at first. So should civ3. This supports the idea of making certain terrain types inaccessible by early units, and accessible only to advanced units.

2) What happened to the oasis concept of civ2?! I have not seen oases in civ3. I used to like them as long as you don't have too many of them. It makes it possible to have a Palmera like civilization!

3) Rocky shores tiles are needed. Even the best modern armies cannot land armies on rocky shores. Rocky shores tiles are basically mountains next to shores with the characterisitcs of inability to land on them. (With advanced technology you can parachute). I have won many wars by landing my swordmen on a mountain next to an enemy's city. Come to think of it it is not possible realistically. Can you immagine Spaniards landing on the Big Sur shores of California?!

4) There should be terrain types for very high mountains. It would be impossible or very very time consuming to build a road there. For example, i don't think there is a railroad in the Himalayah; if there is, it was built in the 20th century! Such mountains would provide natural protection for countries that have them. Only certain units could cross them.

	23-10-2002 04:00									#4
	Settling Down and Starting a Civilization - A Wish List Suffering from ads?

The history of our REAL world was governed by that of nomadic tribes (what we call barbarians in civ3). In addition, nomadic tribes attacked at different ages/eras and settled to become dominant civilizations. I mention the Arabs, the Moguls, the Germanic tribes, etc.

That is why I suggest the following regarding barbarians:
1) They should keep popping up throughout the ages in tiles that are under no border.
2) When they attack and occupy a city, they establish a civilization (one of the tribe name you mentioned) and a capital. New players in the multi-player mode can enter the game and play that small (probably week civilization).
3) These early successes (capturing the first city and settling) should be accompanied by a Golden Age and the production of a leader (to give the settling nomadic tribe a chance).

If this is done, civ4 would simulate more realistically Earth's history:
1) civilizations did not all start in 4000 BC; they popped up through the ages.
2) nomadic barbarian tribes ultimately settled and few occupied large territories and/or established a "civilization".

	23-10-2002 04:05									#5
	Civilization Specific Abilities - Setting Tired of ads?

I turn the "Civilization Specific Ability" off when I want to play a realistic game. A civilization does not start as a religious or scientific one. The Arabs may not have become religious if it were not for their prophet Mohamad; they were not "born" religious. Things that people build, what they invent, wars, events, and history create civilization specific abilities.

Turn this feature off to play a realistic game!

	23-10-2002 04:06									#6
	Map Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Obiously Earth is 75% water and is made up of continents! So I select similar settings when I start a new game. I also select raging barbarians! Our world was --and still is -- full of them!

Moe

	23-10-2002 06:25									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

75% water, but thats not going to give enough land to build a civilization that is close to realism in Civ3. The map needs to be superhuge!

	23-10-2002 17:45									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The naval part of Civ 1, Civ 2 and Civ 3 is underdeveloped. Please read my Maritime Manifesto for opinions, ideas and comments.

	05-11-2002 09:20									#9
	Warp effect is unrealisting Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

When you are unwelcome within the borders of another civilization, and the other civilization asks you to leave automatically or declare war, and you agree to leave, your units are moved to the next available neutral land (or your own borders if closer). This action, in advanced stages of the game where most tiles are within some civilization's borders, causes a "warp" effect, which transport the units from one end of the continent to another in one turn --something that would take as much as 20 turns if moved one tile per turn!

There should be limitation on this warp effect for civ3 to be more realistic. Suggestions:
1) Move units not more than 5 tiles.
2) Move to closest naval units if within 5 tiles.
3) Offer disbanding of the units.
4) Offer automatic movement of the units where you cannot control the movement for the next 5 moves and the computer force the units to move away to neutral or to a distant spot within current borders.
5) Offer disarming of the units, which causes them to become defenseless workers, settlers, or explorers!

	06-11-2002 05:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer The naval part of Civ 1, Civ 2 and Civ 3 is underdeveloped. Please read my Maritime Manifesto for opinions, ideas and comments.

With permission, i am reposting it so i can quote and reply.

------------------------------------

A Maritime Manifesto

In Civ 3, as well as in its predecessors, naval units are expensive, slow and weak. They are not used unless necessary, which harms historical realism, strategic depth and fun.

Historical realism
From the bronze age until the advent of railroads, sea travel was with little competition the fastest, safest, and most convenient means of transportation. The seas tied peoples together rather by dividing them, like mountains, forests and deserts did. One of the most important factors behind European technical superiority was that Europe is surrounded by calm waters - the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the English Channel, the North Sea and the Baltic. No other continent has got this advantage. Someone said "Who controls the seas controls trade, and who controls trade controls the world."

Strategic depth
Civs on islands are predestinated losers. They will have a hard time expanding and finding resources.

Civ warfare is land warfare. Naval battles and blockades occur too rarely. In many games you don't really need to build a great navy.

Fun
The Civ world consists of continents with some kind of deep blue goop between them. This blue goop is mostly a problem; it yields little production unless you build expensive improvements, barbarians come from there, you cannot walk on it, and the vessels used to cross it are poor. To be drastic, water is a bit like the fungus in SMAC. If you start on an island, the beginning of the game will be tedious since you cannot explore or interact with other civs.



SOLUTIONS
The trade system is a good step forward from Civ 1 & 2, but not really enough. Much can be done through ordinary modding. Here are some points:

More and better naval units
Here is a suggestion of a unit setup.

I have added Timber as a strategic resource needed for most pre-steam ships. It would be very common in Forests and Jungles. (All trees consist of wood, but far from all are suited for shipbuilding.)

Transport units
* Raft: coast, carries one foot unit, moves 3
* Roundship: coast, carries 2 units, moves 4
* Longboat: sea, carries 1, moves 5
* Caravel: ocean, carries 2, moves 5, requires Timber
* Clipper: ocean, carries 3, moves 6, requires Timber
* Steamer: carries 4, moves 7, requires Iron and Coal
* Transport: carries 5, moves 8, requires Iron and Oil
* Superconductor Ship: carries 5, moves 10, requires Aluminium

Naval power units
* Galley: 1/1/4, coast, Timber
* Dromone: 2/2/4, coast, Timber & Saltpeter (Byzantine-style Galley with Greek fire)
* Ship of the Line: 3/4/5 (3/1/2), ocean, Timber Iron & Saltpeter
* Ironclad: 5/6/4 (4/1/2), zoc, sea, Iron Coal & Saltpeter
* Torpedo Boat: 8/4/6, sea, Iron & Coal
* Dreadnought: 10/12/6 (6/2/1), zoc, ocean, Iron & Coal
* Submarine: 8/4/5, Iron & Oil
* Battleship:14/16/7 (9/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* Destroyer: 7/8/8 (5/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* AEGIS cruiser: 9/10/8 (6/3/2), zoc, radar, Aluminium & Oil

The Carrier and the Submarine remain as before. One could introduce a Super Carrier, too.

I do not know what to do with the Privateer. It is sure fun, but historically the privateers never confrontated warships - just merchant ships. Maybe they could be made really cheap and used for blockades.

Other ideas conerning naval units
If naval power units can carry ground units (which some of them should - a battleship is big enough to hold many soldiers) will the AI use it to transport them?

Sonar buoy - a naval unit with stats 0/1/1, radar, sub, sees subs. Deploy these to watch your enemy.

Demolition ships, like in Age of Kings (missile type?)

Ships can be given the Intercept ability to shoot down passing aircraft, but does it work properly? And can fighters on a Carrier intercept?

Splitting the Harbor improvements into several ones
* Dock (20 shields, expansionist) - gives food bonus
* Goods Port (40 shields, commercial, expansionist) - allows sea trade and provides some culture
* Naval Regiment (40 shields, military) - produces veteran ships


Giving the Marine flag to several units
Assaults from the sea have existed for a long time, so having only one kind of Marine unit is less than optimal. Mostly, convetional infantry have been used in landing operations, often with great casualties. (Think of D-day!) It would be better to remove the Marine and give its ability to several foot units at different technology levels.

One could try Musketmen, Riflemen and Infantry. One possible problem is that these units are defensive, and the AI might not use them for sea assaults.


Removing the All as Road ability from the Explorer
This would make rough terrrain an obstacle throughout the game, and promote expansion over the seas. The Explorer can become useful if it has the Submarine flag, which will make it invisible. Then you can use it to spy on your enemy within his borders, unless he happens to move a combat unit into its square.

Increasing the Commerce output of coast/sea/ocean

To be continued...

What do you think?

	06-11-2002 05:51									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Explorer579 From the bronze age until the advent of railroads, sea travel was with little competition the fastest, safest, and most convenient means of transportation. The seas tied peoples together ....

Great manifesto! Come to think of it, roads in civ3 generate trade and I never liked that. Most of our tax money goes to maintaining roads and highway. Roads should cost money for maintenance. But the sea is free transportation. In this aspect by discouraging building roads (associate a cost factor with it) you will promote sea transport and operations.

I never liked the idea that civ3 map ends up being full of roads and railroads. These should cost money not bring trade. People should plan their road locations very carefully so they are strategically located. Wars are won by controlling roads. By making roads expensive, civ3 would increase realism. Consequently, sea faring is encouraged because it is free!

	06-11-2002 05:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Explorer579 The Civ world consists of continents with some kind of deep blue goop between them.

Oceans are more difficult to travel because ships used to run out of supply in early ages and face stormy waters. Sea tiles are easier to travel because they are closer to shore.

I never understood how in the middle of the ocean with no islands around, the map generator generates few sea tiles! This is unrealistic.

The definition of coast, sea, and ocean should be directly a function of the distance from the closest land mass. It should not be random.
1) Coast: a water tile adjacent to land mass
2) See: 3 water tiles within land mass
3) Ocean:anything that is more than 3 water tiles away from the closest land mass.

	06-11-2002 06:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Explorer579 I have added Timber as a strategic resource needed for most pre-steam ships. It would be very common in Forests and Jungles.

Correct. Timber should be required to build ships and should be a strategic resource. Ancient Egypt imported timber from Phoenecia because they did not have enough of it.

I also don't like it when by the end of the game all forests disappear from the map! If timber were made a strategic resource, players will keep forests around. This is more realistic.

The question is how much if your land should be forrested! That is a tough question that cannot be answered without adding complexity to the game.

	08-11-2002 01:23									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

My point is - the speed of the ships is not reasonable.

I an not sure if the roads should not generate trade or no to; If they wouldn't any then it would be too tough - maybe road-connected colonies should generate trade for closest friendly city?

I *completely* agree with Explorer597 - the ships MUST be better and DEFINITELY faster. I liked the exploration scenario for Civ II because ships had there a reasonable speed. The speed of ships should be doubled. Alternative could be that the speed of the ships should correlate with map size. Compare the speed of ships with railroad - it is ridiculous!

Luckily the railroad is less good in Civ III - thanks for the creators. At least I cannot use the RR on enemy territory as - no "howitzer run" anymore.

I noticed that in Civilization board game the coastal trading seems to be more emphasized than in civ III - pre RR trade range is highest via naval transport! Well, by dividing the seas to three categories - coast, sea and ocean is a thing which allows a lot of modification!

There might be some problems too, with just increasing the speed -> next post.

Last edited by Druuge on 08-11-2002 at 01:29

	08-11-2002 01:38									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Assuming the trireme's stats are 1/1/6 it can create some problems. It could boost early exploration too much - I mean sailing on the coasts of the continents. So with the current possibilities I'd prefer a "standard" trireme with 3 movement. On the world map It would be not good, if I'd reach too far! Green light to frigate, red to trireme.

When I could wish for a flag for a unit, then I'd wish for something like this - 1/16 or 1/32 chance of drowning any time, anywhere.

If I could wish for something else, then there should be a difference with a coast adjacent to sea and a coast adjacent to ocean; the latter should be dangerous for triremes - an ocean is an ocean, after all. I think that the coast of Algier, for example, is much safer place to travel when compared to Gulf of Biskaia or Chile, for example.

Note - I agree that *coastal mountains* would make disembarking impossible. Not hills, but mountains definitely. It can be done by modding - make everything wheeled

BTW - interesting thread.

	12-11-2002 07:49									#16
	Remove this text

Good idea Druuge.Imagine: All units are wheeled in the early times and mountains in general are impassable to wheeled units (PTW). That changes in the modern times. Until then you could use hills for a way between the mountains. Would be a good defense for civs living behind them.

Another problem is: On those hills, the way through the mountain, there should be a fortress. But fortresses are not used by the ai it seems. I would never leave that fortress undefended, no one would, but the ai ignores them I think. How to change? Giving the ai some troops without movement? Okay, would work until defeated, and then?

Too less fortresses in general. Or strategic excellent locations. No AI would build a Suez or Constantinopel, they do not recognize such locations. Disgusting. But you can play around with some terrains. THis means you avoid using some special terrain, perhaps wood looks like jungle so you can use this. In the near area of Suez place everywhere jungle (with changed graphics), give them the ability to non-settle and on the right location a normal grass or whatever. Then the ai is forced to build on that excellent location.

Some has spoken about the cities on the coast. I say: they are useless. They produce nothing and are weak. Perhaps you can give water terrains some shields and extraordinary trading boni. But there are excellent trading locations, how to simulate them? By fish or whales, less used on the map but with very good boni.

The land cities would be weak indeed and that is correct. But it changes through middleages. How to simulate this? Perhaps mining is developed very late and the mines give very good boni.

Or another way? An idea. I always hated it to use only trade for money. What about taxes? In the editor you can make labourers pay you taxes. So you get money from them directly. Now when the cities on the coast produce more food, they are richer than the others because of their population. Perhaps irrigating is developed later and are then more effective than water terrain. So you could simulate that effect, that the land cities grow in importance.

But I would like to do another thing, but don't know how to do this. An old idiom says that the cities in the mediterrainian world are like frogs around a little sea (sorry for the bad translation). Is there a way to make the civs not build land cities in the first time? A changing- terrain-event would be great.

And then the roads. Quite disturbing that everywhere are roads and railways. If you turn off the ability to produce some boni like trading you can't build any roads. Why?? I thought the ai would only connect its cities but it doesn't work at all.

If you choose this and place them in the editor only they could be pillaged and would be lost forever. Why the hack Firaxis think roads could be destroyed? How many years would this last and by the way: imagine to destroy some roman streets. It is not coincidence that some of them are still here today ;-)

With the roads I am very helpless. And the railoads must get the ability, and if its only for mods, to change the infinite bonus. Perhaps triple bonus but not more.

	12-11-2002 10:51									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by twilight Some has spoken about the cities on the coast. I say: they are useless. They produce nothing and are weak. Perhaps you can give water terrains some shields and extraordinary trading boni. But there are excellent trading locations, how to simulate them? By fish or whales, less used on the map but with very good boni.

If you have a naval strategy, the coastal cities are a must. My coastal cities always flurish and prosper, particularly if you reach the time when your build off shore platforms. However, if the coastal city is in a desert, it will rarely grow until you can affor to build a harbor.

	12-11-2002 10:54									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by twilight And then the roads. Quite disturbing that everywhere are roads and railways. If you turn off the ability to produce some boni like trading you can't build any roads. Why?? I thought the ai would only connect its cities but it doesn't work at all.

I am experimenting with the editor by doubling the amount of time it takes to build roads and railroads. This should make them more valuable in early game strategy. Wait for my judgement until I test more.

Too bad I can't edit the railroad infinite movement bonus. I can just make it cost more to build. Too bad. It is so unrealistic.

	12-11-2002 11:00									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Druuge If I could wish for something else, then there should be a difference with a coast adjacent to sea and a coast adjacent to ocean; the latter should be dangerous for triremes - an ocean is an ocean, after all. I think that the coast of Algier, for example, is much safer place to travel when compared to Gulf of Biskaia or Chile, for example. BTW - interesting thread.

I am experimenting with the editor. You can make mountains impassible. No units can then pass them except air units. This makes sense considering that no units could pass the Himalayas. Only then, you can't land on mountains.

As for rocky coasts, i am thinking of the following:
1) creating my own map
2) changing ocean tiles to impassible
3) making all deep water sea tiles and making "ocea" tiles impassible.
4) placing on my maps "ocean" tiles next to chille or rocky shores that are impassible to any naval units!

That may work but then the random map generator would be useless if ocean tiles in its definition are impassible!

	12-11-2002 11:04									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Druuge BTW - interesting thread.

I would like the end result of this thread to be
1) building a scenario/mod that aims at increasing realism in the game (realism defined earlier in the thread).

and/or

2) coming with suggestions to Feraxis (hoping they read these forums) regarding enhancements for civ4 or a "civ3 - Play Realistically"

By the way, if anybody out there knows of such realistic scenario/mod, please make my life easier by directing me to it!

	12-11-2002 20:07									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am experimenting with the editor. You can make mountains impassible. No units can then pass them except air units. This makes sense considering that no units could pass the Himalayas. Only then, you can't land on mountains.

Okay, but is it possible to give some units the ability to cross them? I think of Mountaintroops (Gebirgsjäger) for example.

	13-11-2002 07:46									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

This is a great thread--I hope we can get lots of ideas on it!

I posted this on the Civ Fanatics forum, and so I'll just copy what I wrote there:
-----
Note before I begin: I actually haven't played that many games of Civ III, so if I say something really, really stupid, please keep the haughty mocking to the "court jester" level.

I think one of the worst unrealistic things is sending out troops or ships with no supply lines and they can stay away from home for maybe 1,000 or 2,000 years, not die and not forget their mission...and continually communicating back to their leader (you). Bronze age radio, brought to you by the Lost Secrets of Atlantis!

Perhaps we could mod all units to be similar to air units, with a base and range. I can understand not requiring nuclear subs or sailing ships to have a base, but a battleship needs an oil or coaling station...and troops deep in enemy territory should require some unbroken chain of supply. (The "non-healing" before Battlefield Medicine is a very rough approximation of this.) Some many important aspects of world history cannot be modeled without the idea of lines of supply. (At least the cities have production tied this way, which I think is an excellent addition...strategic resources are one of the two coolist additions to Civ, the other one being Culture...IMO.)

If you send a sailing vessel or warriors across temperate or tropical areas, they can "live off the land" to a large degree (but watch out for tropical disease!) However, if you send a sailing vessel to chart out the arctic, or send a warrior accross the frozen tundra, it's going to die before too long. Deep tropical forests and arctic regions should be terra incognita until relatively modern times.

There should be some way to accurately simulate supply lines necessary for the support of troops (and if cut off, they will die), and also avoid the "instantaneous communications" from far-flung units before the advent of radio. Imagine the suspense from sending off a troop of horsemen or fleet of ships in the age of sail to chart the unknown wilds, and have them return 20 years later with detailed maps! Perhaps, like Magelleon, they would loose quite a bit of their starting strength, but come back with riches from the East! (Perhaps Magelleon's voyage could be modded to reveal continental outlines and pay a random amount of gold...with the odd chance that it will never return. And make it a small wonder.)

Movement points on units should be modded for the various sizes of maps. For example, in an ultra-huge 362 X 362 map, each square on an earth-sized world is about 62 Km/39 miles on a side...surely even a galley can move more than 186 Km in 50 years! (This is probably the easiest mod I'm suggesting, but I'm lazy and haven't done it yet.)

Anyway, just some thoughts. I know that there are probably "playability" reasons for the way everything is currently set up, but I'd like to see in Civ IV (or CTP III, I can always dream, can't I?) these issues addressed.

------

That's my current pet peeve: lack of simulation of lines of supply and ancient communication lag. If we can mod this, great! If we can't...well, Civ III is still a fun way to waste time and avoid cleaning the house while the wife is away and when you really should be doing laundry...

	13-11-2002 14:08									#23
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quote: Originally posted by bartdanr That's my current pet peeve: lack of simulation of lines of supply and ancient communication lag. If we can mod this, great! If we can't...well, Civ III is still a fun way to waste time and avoid cleaning the house while the wife is away and when you really should be doing laundry...

I thought about the ship supply line and ancient instant communication a lot. It is generally realistic because each turn is actually several years. When a ship meets a new civilization on a second continent in the current turn and you know about it immediately, it is OK because the second turn the year jumps by 20: immagine the ship went back to motherland, reported, and came back to the frontier!

However, the artic sailing is un-realistic. In civ2, I used to sneak my triremes on artic shores to discover the world. This is fixed in civ3. A solution for Feraxis would be to create a water tile that is called "hazardous sea". The more primitive the ship unit, the higher the likelihood of sinking!

As for walking on the artic, the solution is to make this type of tile impassible to all units (like you can do with mountains). No cities can be built there too. I have not seen much of artic continents with the current map generator. Tundra tile is the closest thing; and tundra is more inhabitable than artic. There are no artic tiles in civ3 and no artic continents. However, to increase realism, I suggest the creation of a new tile: the artic tile. It should be impassible and inhabitable except to one very advanced unit (e.g. airplane).

	13-11-2002 14:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by bartdanr Perhaps we could mod all units to be similar to air units, with a base and range. I can understand not requiring nuclear subs or sailing ships to have a base, but a battleship needs an oil or coaling station...and troops deep in enemy territory should require some unbroken chain of supply. (The "non-healing" before Battlefield Medicine is a very rough approximation of this.) Some many important aspects of world history cannot be modeled without the idea of lines of supply.

To simulate the effect of line of supply in naval strategy, play the game with highest level of barbarians and increase the strength of barbarians. World history is shaped by barbarian activities (ancient and modern)!

This way when I send my ship to a far away continent without resting in one of my cities every now and then, barbarian ships keep attacking it until it sinks! Here is your supply line! No close cities to resupply ship with strength, then no ship!

As for food supply, I always immagine an Alexandrian or Crusader army that eats from the land it occupies (an army that does not bring its own supplies!) There is always food around for my units (though I play arid settings). The exception is desert and artic. Similar to how units could die from disease in the jungle, they should also die from lack of food if a LARGE number of units are moved together through tiles with no food resources! Considering that early in the game i build roads and that I play smaller maps, I never need to simulate dying from hunger! My units cross the desert fast...

But again "roads" is the key word for a land-based lines of supply. As I noted in previous posts, roads are too easy to make in civ3. I use the editor to double the work needed to complete them. Ancient large empires were mostly successful because of effective communication and lines of supply!

I remember in civ2 that if your cities do not keep in constant touch (line of supply), they may split into two empires! I like this concept though it is complex for some players. I don't mind re-introducing this concept in civ4. This is how it should work. If the following conditions exist:
1) if one of your cities (new world city) is "x" tiles away from the nearest other city of your civ; and
2) if the new world city is not connected to any of your other cities by port or road; and
3) if none of your land or see units visit that city in "y" years,

only then this city will split and form a new civilization (or become a barbarian city)!

As for values of x and y, they have to be tested to balance the simulation. I suggest
x= 15 tiles
y= 200 years

I have to admit that the introduction of culture and borders in civ3 have had a very good effect of encouraging the building of your civilization around a central geographic area. In civ2, my empire consisted of cities on different continents with nothing in common but ancestry! This no more likely in civ3. Good job Feraxis! I think the realism in simulation proponents at Feraxis are there but silent...

	13-11-2002 17:29									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

ehm...are you sure all those things are possible to be modded?

	14-11-2002 00:50									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy ehm...are you sure all those things are possible to be modded?

No. Some features discussed above can be modded others are for the civ4 wish list. I try to distinguish between the two in my posts. Please read my postings again and let me know what features you were referring to.

	16-11-2002 07:34									#27
	Remove this text

quote: I thought about the ship supply line and ancient instant communication a lot. It is generally realistic because each turn is actually several years. When a ship meets a new civilization on a second continent in the current turn and you know about it immediately, it is OK because the second turn the year jumps by 20: immagine the ship went back to motherland, reported, and came back to the frontier!

I can see the realism in how this relates to exploration vessels, but once you explore an area, it still takes the same length of time to move in it, which is unrealistic.

For example, I send a galley out to explore, and I find an island six squares away that I want to settle. 100 years to travel there, and a 100 years to travel back is a bit much!

Perhaps there could be two "travel modes": (1) an exploratory mode, which is very slow, when you are mapping out an area and (2) a regular travel mode, after mapping an area and travelling well-known sea lanes.

I agree that exploration should be slow, but travel in well-explored areas should be relatively fast.

Maybe fast travel speeds for all units, combined with heavy barbarian/pirate activity, could simulate this, as suggested. That way exploration is limited by the barbarians, but once an area is "civilized" (i.e., those nasty barbarians are dead), travel and communication within the Empire is rapid...but in Terra Incognita, you best be prepared for long and difficult explorations!

	16-11-2002 08:06									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

Perhaps this idea could be worked out. What do you think about fleets reacting like aircrafts? The ships remain in cities given orders to do missions. Exploring, trading, transporting, fighting, guarding, do an embargo and so on. Infinte range, but dangerous because of storms, monsters (decided by the mod), enemy fleets...

When a fleet is guarding a single location and another fleet meets them (0-3 coordinates nearby) they fight.

Trading Ships could increase trading importance. You choose ships to trade, and a target. Both cities get the bonus. I always wanted to play a city like for example Byzanz where east and west were trading. What about that?

	17-11-2002 00:01									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by bartdanr For example, I send a galley out to explore, and I find an island six squares away that I want to settle. 100 years to travel there, and a 100 years to travel back is a bit much!

It is very realistic to spend a 100 year settling after discovery. The New World was discovered in 1492 but it was not before 1600 that settlements started ! The speed of the Spaniard's galleons was the same whether they were exploring or settling!

	17-11-2002 00:09									#30
	Supply lines and roads Suffering from ads?

I played few games where the time needed to build roads and railways was doubled. They were lot of fun because then you focus your strategy on
1) linking city early in the game
2) choosing shortest path
3) building military support lines
4) protecting the roads that are very time-consuming to build

Guess what? The computer AI turned out to be stupid. When road are easy to build (default settings of civ3), the computer opponents has roads everywhere connected his cities and providing supply lines by the 1 AD. But when you double the time to build roads in the scenario editor, i can easily destroy supply lines of the enemy, cutting his access to strategic resources (in default settings, enemy has raods on every tile so you cannot destory supply routes). I can easily transport my troops in the ancient world because I focused on supply lines, while the AI cannot because its strategy is short-term: it builds roads to increase wealth and not to ensure supply lines; if roads are easy to build, ultimately the AI can link cities; however if roads are not easy to build, the AI has a big shortcoming.

It is fun! Try it. Go to the editor and double the number of turns it takes to make roads and railways (i think it is under worker actions).