24-10-2002 12:02									#1
	US soldiers that bombed Canadians honored as heroes Remove this text

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...?hub=TopStories

quote: Fundraiser held for 'friendly-fire' pilots The two U.S. pilots being blamed for the deaths of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan were hailed as heroes Wednesday night at a fundraising dinner in their honour in Illinois. More than 400 people came to the $50-a-person event in honour of Maj. Harry Schmidt and Maj. William Umbach. The two men face six-figure legal bills as they fight charges of involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty. The charges stem from the accidental bombing last April of Canadian troops from Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. The troops were conducting a live-fire training exercise in Afghanistan when Schmidt dropped a 225-kilogram bomb on what he thought was hostile fire. Four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight injured. Both the Canadian and the joint Canada-U.S. inquiry into the bombing accused Schmidt and Umbach, who were flying a routine mission over southern Afghanistan at the time, of not following procedure before dropping the bomb. The pilots say they weren't told about the Canadian training exercise in the area that night. On Wednesday night, Illinois Gov. George Ryan put his full support behind the two pilots, who are members of the Illinois Air National Guard's 183rd Fighter Wing. "I know these two fellows and I know their wives. They're not people who commit manslaughter," Ryan said, speaking outside his official residence. "They didn't do this on purpose. They're solid, sound citizens. "They're not cowboys." It seems some Canadians have also given the pilots their support in the form of donations to their defence fund. Some came with the message: "Drop the charges." "It shouldn't destroy more lives," says fundraiser John Russo. Schmidt and Umbach face a military trial at the Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana late this year or early next year. An Article 32 hearing will determine if the charges will be pursued. For now, they have been reassigned to desk duty. The two men have not commented publicly on the charges against them. However, family members have. Schmidt's wife, Lisa, said in a recent interview her husband was "in shock" and "struggling" with grief the day of the accident. She said she fears that her husband, along with his flight lead Umbach, will spend the rest of his life in jail. "Don't put them in jail. Don't charge them as criminals. Don't tell them they're criminals when they didn't do a criminal act," she said. On Thursday, Canada AM will have an exclusive interview with Umbach's brother, Bob.

Discuss.

	24-10-2002 12:07									#2
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Of course they didn't do it intentionally...if they did it intentionally it'd be murder instead of manslaughter, wouldn't it?

The idea behind punishing these pilots is to try to ensure people in the future are far more careful about who they drop their bombs on, perhaps even followinng procedure.

Praising them as heroes disgusts me, though, and I do still think they need to be punished.

Now I'm going to get the hell out of this thread before Tingkai comes in blasting anti-American rhetoric and starting typical flamewars.

	24-10-2002 12:17									#3
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A sad story indeed.

I think the military is saying that it was more than a mistake. What that article does not say, that I have heard on Canadian news, is that the pilot(s) ignored orders not to fire.

If so, hang 'em. If not then...

That is a question for a court to decide.

	24-10-2002 12:17									#4
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Hopefully he won't have an easy time of it; it's pretty clear that the only people saying this are the friends and family of the pilots, and local politicians seeing an easy ticket.

The rest of us aren't saying anything like this.

edit: "he" refering to Tingkai.

	24-10-2002 12:20									#5
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Actually MM, there are Canadians contributing to the defence fund. Veterans in particular from what I've heard.

I think they are questioning the second guessing. I'm not sure though, since the story is relatively fresh.

	24-10-2002 12:20									#6
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All I can say is that it would be sad if these people got stiffer sentences than those responsible for My Lai.

	24-10-2002 12:45									#7
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That's true, nye. It's probably best to wait in any case.

Asher:

quote: All I can say is that it would be sad if these people got stiffer sentences than those responsible for My Lai.

...and you were worried about Tingkai?

	24-10-2002 12:58									#8
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I'm usually strong against the death penalty, but string these bastards up.

	24-10-2002 12:59									#9
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The world is already convinced that Americans lack anything like a sense of responsibility; that we can do whatever the hell we want, and if the result is tragic, or criminal -- well, hey, that's not out fault. Because nothing is ever our fault.

This certainly doesn't help, does it?

As an American, as an erstwhile son of Illinois, I'm profoundly embarrassed. Sorry, Canada.

	24-10-2002 15:46									#10
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quote: "I know these two fellows and I know their wives. They're not people who commit manslaughter," Ryan said, speaking outside his official residence. "They didn't do this on purpose. They're solid, sound citizens.

Someone should remind this piece of sh*t exactly what manslaughter is!!!

quote: All I can say is that it would be sad if these people got stiffer sentences than those responsible for My Lai.

Oh, so you want this to be covered up and swept under the carpet like My Lai???

No these two need to be made an example of specifically because there are too many examples of US friendly fire down the years!

US military forces need to know that they can't simply shoot the hell out of everything that moves and get away scot free!

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am still very aware of the fact that the Americans killed more British soldiers in the Gulf War than the Iraqis did!!!

That's why the US doesn't want to sign the International War Crimes bill - they know their armed forces are just too goddamned trigger happy!

	24-10-2002 19:12									#11
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MOBIUS: Take some goddamned medication.

	24-10-2002 19:18									#12
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It's good to see the fire of conviction.

You're getting old, DanS.

	24-10-2002 19:22									#13
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"Fire of Conviction"?

Really, you give him ENTIRELY too much credit.

	24-10-2002 19:26									#14
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This is not the first day you know him, he always does this

	24-10-2002 19:36									#15
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Yes, my diagnosis, after long-term observation, is that he needs medical help.

	24-10-2002 19:55									#16
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I'd like to see the details of the enquiry, rather than all this hearsay. It wouldnt be the first time that the pilots have been the scapegoats for a ****-up somewhere else. BTW I dont see how this is manslaughter, it is a warzone.

	24-10-2002 20:03									#17
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yet another gem from the governor. This is the same guy who wanted to give Death row inmates a 90 second review of whether they are guilty or not, AND he's part of teh licesense for Bribes scandal. The attorney general is suing the governor or the death row inmate thing by the way, although may just political grandstanding for the upcoming election.

Oh yeah, Gov. Ryan isn't even attempting to run for a second term, that says something about the controversy around him

As for the pilots, I think there should be a court of inquiry first before anything gets decided.

	24-10-2002 20:23									#18
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In the pilot's defense, they've been pressured (apparently) to cover for those higher up in the chain of command. A large portion of the fault may not fall on them.

Which still doesn't excuse beahavior like this.

	24-10-2002 20:34									#19
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I think Ryan is standing up for him because so many people want their heads on a pike. Yes, they screwed up, costing people their lives, and they should be punished for it. That's why we have accidental homocide, i.e, manslaughter laws.

H Tower, 90 second reviews? The AG of Illinois is a murderous bastard. His opinion towards the other Ryan is meaningless. Jim Ryan (the AG), has fought every attempt to get prisoners on death row new trials even when there was overwhelming evidence of police and prosecutorial misconduct, such as in the Nicarico case. He doesn't care about justice, he cares about being a winner. I had really hoped the cancer was gonna get him.

	24-10-2002 20:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH BTW I dont see how this is manslaughter, it is a warzone.

I'm not convinced that it was the pilot's fault - in fact, gut feel tells me that someone higher up the chain of command is ultimately to blame, but who knows. The thing about this incident that some need to remember is that while Afghanistan was indeed a hot spot, the Americans bombed Canadians during a training exercise of which they were informed, was taking place in an area cleared for training, and no where near any current hostilities. Further, the pilots were not engaged in any way. This goes WAY beyond any typical friendly fire incident during wartime. It's basically like bombing your own troops training at some base in the US.

Again, though, I'm not sure the pilots should take all the blame here, especially if they are correct about not being briefed about the training op.

	24-10-2002 23:30									#21
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Mobius,

quote: Oh, so you want this to be covered up and swept under the carpet like My Lai???

No, that's not what I said. I'm saying that My Lai was unquestioningly worse - this friendly fire incident was an accident, while My Lai was on purpose. It makes no sense to punish an accident greater than an intentional slaughter, wouldn't you agree?

quote: No these two need to be made an example of specifically because there are too many examples of US friendly fire down the years!

If we prosecuted every instance of friendly fire, there would be a lot of soldiers in prison over the years.

quote: US military forces need to know that they can't simply shoot the hell out of everything that moves and get away scot free!

True, but then again, because there was no declaration of war, I'm not sure the US - MUCH LESS Canada - had any business in Afghanistan anyway.

quote: Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am still very aware of the fact that the Americans killed more British soldiers in the Gulf War than the Iraqis did!!!

And I'm sure I can dig up instances in history where British friendly fire killed American soldiers.

Look, I'm not saying these guys should get off scot free - I'm simply saying that these guys are people too, and made a mistake. Kick them out of the military, give them a dishonorable discharge, even, but don't ruin their lives by locking them up for the rest of their lives.

	24-10-2002 23:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS No these two need to be made an example of specifically because there are too many examples of US friendly fire down the years!

Mostly because our troops are the ones who actually fight. Of course, we know what you're really mad about. It ain't our fault if your guys can't properly call in a target, identify themselves, and then stay out of the target zone.

quote: US military forces need to know that they can't simply shoot the hell out of everything that moves and get away scot free!

Let's see what you do under fire.

quote: Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am still very aware of the fact that the Americans killed more British soldiers in the Gulf War than the Iraqis did!!!

Well, if you'd agressively engaged the goddamned Iraqis, maybe they would have had more chances to shoot your troops asses off. Did you ever stop to think for a minute how maybe the reason the Iraqis were so generally ineffective at inflicting casualties was due in large measure to the overwhelming number of close support sorties that were effectively on target?

quote: That's why the US doesn't want to sign the International War Crimes bill - they know their armed forces are just too goddamned trigger happy!

At least ours fight.

	25-10-2002 00:01									#23
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If an inquiry finds that these pilots did not follow reguations, they have to be reprimanded or punished in some way. as to 'its a warzone' statement: so f*king what? There are rules and regulations, that under the code of military conduct, must be followed. if these me broke the code, they will be punished, and no excuse is possible or worthy.

Calling these men heroes is absurd: They have done nothing that in any way merits the term, in fact, are accused of doing things that might even be criminal. This BS that every soldier is a hero is utter PC bullshit. heroes do something more than is expected, they go beyond the call: men who sign up for the military are expected to fight, expected to take risk, and know they will put themselves in danger.

Every soldier, firefighter, police officer and so forth is not a hero, most never will be. We have such a wonderful way of cheapening and trivializing everything in this country. And calling men accused of prehaps criminal action is even more insulting. Damn the pilots families-if they are responsible, they should go to jail: what happened here to the wardens of personal responsibility? It doesn't count for soldiers?

	25-10-2002 00:49									#24
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Depending on the degree of culpability, the UCMJ can have some pretty harsh punishments. At a minimum, regardless of the outcome, these guy's careers are down the toilet.

What I find interesting (because yes, lower level guys take the heat for higher up decision-making) is the one issue that you can bet your paycheck won't be examined.

What role did the fact that these guys are IANG reservists play in their combat readiness and ability to execute the assigned mission? The training time these guys get is pretty damn low, especially training in a realistic threat environment.

Quality and necessity of combat reserves, funding and training levels, and the operational integration of combat reserves individually or by unit into active duty forces are major political footballs.

	25-10-2002 00:51									#25
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National Guardsmen should NEVER, EVER be deployed overseas, anyway (not that any US troops should, but especially not Guardsmen).

	25-10-2002 01:02									#26
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They're not heroes, they're not villains, they're two guys who really f*cked up. Their negligence qualifies as criminal, IMO, and should be treated just as it would in a civilian case.

	25-10-2002 01:04									#27
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what were canadians doing there anyway, in all seriousness?

does your military just follow us around doing "live fire testing"?

	25-10-2002 01:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They're not heroes, they're not villains, they're two guys who really f*cked up. Their negligence qualifies as criminal, IMO, and should be treated just as it would in a civilian case.

Well, I kinda disagree about the civilian part, since it wasn't a civilian situation...

But I don't think they're villains, I think they should serve as an example of why people should be more careful in combat when dropping bombs near friendly troops.

	25-10-2002 02:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX what were canadians doing there anyway, in all seriousness? does your military just follow us around doing "live fire testing"?

They were there because your government asked for them, and Canada honoured its commitment under NATO.

Those particular soldiers were in a training excercise near their base. Until more details are known, it is impossible to say how the circumstances came about that the pilot dropped ordnance on them.

	25-10-2002 03:06									#30
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In my opinion as a Evil American Serviceman(tm), those two fools should be punished for their outright stupidity. As my Instructor would say, "Pilots shoot at anything that's shiny. You think they thought the hinese Embassy in Belgrade was a Serb target? No, they saw a Satillite dish."