24-10-2002 12:45									#1
	Espionage methods Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just finished a game....got excited when I built the intelligence agency, and tried a bit of espionage. Only to find that the computer only gave me the options of investigating city or damage production. This is on the "abacus" part of the bottom right of the screen, where you click on "E". When I checked, there are so many more things you can do, like propaganda, etc. How do you get this stuff to work?

What have I missed this time?

	24-10-2002 13:54									#2
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you've used the IA to plant a spy in the civ you want to spy on? if you haven't done this then you'll only get the diplomatic spying options for that civ unless you haven't placed an embassy with them either whereupon you'll get no options.

if you have an embassy and a spy placed then having just the diplomatic spying options would suggest the problem being a bug.

	24-10-2002 14:01									#3
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Sounds like you only built the IA and didn't send out any spies.

The Intelligence Agency only allows you the possibility to plant spies in other civs. It costs $$$ to attempt to plant a spy, planting the spy rarely succeeds and when you get caught, the other civ almost always declares war on you.

Having said that, the IA is a great thing (in some respects). For a modest (or sometime outrageous) fee, you can see all of the enemies troop locations. Most of the other functions are too expensive to use.

Trying to use propaganda to 'steal' cities is a joke. Total waste of money and you'll never succeed - even if your culture is 100 times greater than the other civ and the city you're trying to bribe is size 1. Worthless...

	24-10-2002 14:44									#4
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Don't forget that once you have that spy in place you will always know the number of enemy units, thats my favourite feature with IA

	24-10-2002 21:48									#5
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Don't forget that once you have that spy in place you will always know the number of enemy units, thats my favourite feature with IA

That's almost the only good thing about it, since all other things are either too expensive or simply don't succeed at all.

	25-10-2002 13:13									#6
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Another good one is the ability to spy on other civ's cities while you're at war with them.

Now thats.... 2 good things. Not Bad

As for the rest..couldn't agree more. Useless and/or too expensive

	25-10-2002 16:23									#7
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Another good thing is to know how far they are in building their space ship. In fact it can be particularly useful if you have another opportunity to win (like UN).

	25-10-2002 16:33									#8
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Do you need an IA to know the AI's progress with their spaceships? I'm asking because I haven't had a space race yet.

	25-10-2002 16:59									#9
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You can always use the editor to lower a bit the costs for Spy actions,because I believe everyone here states that are too expensive,mee too.

The diffuclt thing is to find a correct balance.To have fun and a real challenge of course the costs shouldn't be lowered too much,on the other side the have to be lowered ....maybe 50%?

What do you think about " how much spy's action costs should lowered ? "

Thanks

Cheers

Gunter

	25-10-2002 17:02									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah, I lowered the costs of spying and had just about every civ (even those I wasn't at war with) destroying my improvements every turn. Arrghh!!!

If you keep 'em high they'll continue to be worthless (or dearly bought) but the AI won't exploit them to death either - which it certainly does.

	25-10-2002 17:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Do you need an IA to know the AI's progress with their spaceships? I'm asking because I haven't had a space race yet.

Yes, you have to have a spy planted in order to know how many spaceship parts a certain civ finished so far and how many are being built. I am usually winning my games by launching the spaceship, so I know that very well...

	25-10-2002 18:07									#12
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fittstim : Are you saying that the AI can take advantage of lowered spy costs? Cool

vondrack : So once you have that spy in place you can check up on ai spaceships just like the size of his army?

	25-10-2002 18:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by bongo fittstim : Are you saying that the AI can take advantage of lowered spy costs? Cool

I had the same feeling.

Is there anyone of you that can witness the opposite??

Gunter

	25-10-2002 18:38									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by bongo vondrack : So once you have that spy in place you can check up on ai spaceships just like the size of his army?

Sort of. You will see how many parts are finished and how many parts are being constructed. But you will not know, which parts they are having done/built. But you can usually guess from the techs they know...

	25-10-2002 18:41									#15
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Oh, yes. If you want a brutal game lower the price across the board to about 1/10 the current price. The only reason you don't see the AI using this stuff right now is the same reason you don't. It's too expensive to be cost effective. Lower the price and the AI will do it.

	25-10-2002 18:53									#16
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quote: Oh, yes. If you want a brutal game lower the price across the board to about 1/10 the current price. The only reason you don't see the AI using this stuff right now is the same reason you don't. It's too expensive to be cost effective. Lower the price and the AI will do it.

Surely there must be a happy medium where the AI *will* use IA tactics, but rarely... not be doing it 24hrs a day with all its money. Maybe 4/5ths the original price???

	25-10-2002 19:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim Trying to use propaganda to 'steal' cities is a joke. Total waste of money and you'll never succeed - even if your culture is 100 times greater than the other civ and the city you're trying to bribe is size 1. Worthless...

I tried that option maybe 4 or 5 times in my games and managed to 'steal' city twice. Both games were on Monarch level because right now it is the best level I am able to win The first city I captured that way I remember very well. I was playing Germans on large continent. Iroquesi who were my neighbourghs plant the city on the desert pennisula deep within my territory. I was playing builder style game so I didn't bother them. After a series of wars this was the last Iroquesi city. Thanks to my RoP with England it soon became English city. It stayed that way for about 40 turns and then I was about to begin the war with England. I wanted to try something new, so as my opening move I 'initiated propaganda' in their city. To my surprise the city flipped to my empire. It had no buildings (as far as I know it never had), population was 3 (1 Iroquesi and 2 Englishman). The cost was surprisingly low - that's why I tried that option (about 500-600 gold). I repeated this manouver several times in that game but with no success. My culture was strong (compared to England) and I was 1st in all the categories so maybe it helped. Anyway, 'initiating propaganda' is not the most effective way of expanding your empire , but it has some value and in my opinion adds interesting twist to the game.

	25-10-2002 20:10									#18
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Aha! So the AI knows how to use espionage... provided the cost is manageable... Interesting info.

*Alex starts fiddling with the editor*

	25-10-2002 23:27									#19
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I'm not sure what factors induce the AI to use the espionage function, but it definitely does not require lowered costs. The compilation of pop-ups below was taken from a game called Banana Island that played on a custom map but with unmodded rules (espionage costs not lowered). The spoilers to that game are located here.

Catt

Attachment: espionage compilation.jpg
This has been downloaded 77 time(s).

	26-10-2002 21:45									#20
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I never use the spy, for reasons discussed here. In Civ2 the spy was my favourite unit. This is one of the biggest failings of Civ3. Bring back the spy unit!!!

	26-10-2002 23:20									#21
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Please do not bring it back, it was way too powerful. I do not miss the diplomat either.

	27-10-2002 03:15									#22
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Me neither. I don't miss the spy or the diplomat units. Sure, it was fun to infiltrate a spy manually into the enemy territory, but the spy was an overpowered unit, as mentioned before.

What I really wanted in Civ3 was a better interface for espionage actions, and this is what PTW will bring to us. Hooray!