25-10-2002 01:17									#1
	Poll (Unofficial) War with France Goal - The THIRD attempt. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is a completely unofficial poll, to determine how many people support a limited war with France versus their complete annexation.

1) Assimililation, ALL of France.
2) Everything but the Northeastern Cities
3) No war whatsoever
4) Abstain

Third time's a charm.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 25-10-2002 at 01:25

	25-10-2002 01:24									#2
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You mean "Everything but the NorthWESTERN Cities", right?



Ghengis, my man, we've GOT to get you a compass or something.

--Togas

	25-10-2002 01:34									#3
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We are the Appolyons...

Joan of Arc shall be ASSIMILATED.
Resistance is futile.

	25-10-2002 01:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Togas You mean "Everything but the NorthWESTERN Cities", right? Ghengis, my man, we've GOT to get you a compass or something. --Togas

I got Global Positioning Sattelites, I don't need no stinkin compass!

But yes the Northwestern cities.

	25-10-2002 01:43									#5
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I will not vote in this. I am against war at this time.
but if war is to be, take it all.

we are the borg...re...um...the bananas.
resistance is futile.
your technological and biological resources shall adapt to serve us.
prepare to be assimilated.
resistance is futile.

	25-10-2002 01:45									#6
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GhengisFarb... you should have included an option for going to war strictly for the purpose of achieving our Golden Age and then pursuing a peace treaty.

	25-10-2002 01:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos GhengisFarb... you should have included an option for going to war strictly for the purpose of achieving our Golden Age and then pursuing a peace treaty.

I believe there is already a poll about the GA, it may be cloaked somewhere............

	25-10-2002 02:00									#8
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Kill the frogs. All the frogs.

and hope they get Germany back into it as well

	25-10-2002 02:07									#9
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On the second page about 1/5th of the way down.

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I believe there is already a poll about the GA, it may be cloaked somewhere............

	25-10-2002 02:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I believe there is already a poll about the GA, it may be cloaked somewhere............

That poll asks if we should get our GA at all in a war with France... it does not ask the more critical question... one which SHOULD be included in THIS poll:

Should the war END as soon as possible after our GA has started?

EDIT: In other words... making the GA, rather than specific territory, the aim of the war.

	25-10-2002 02:35									#11
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I would rather have had this poll AFTER the other poll ended, so as to avoid confusion. That poll is not yet assured of passage.vSo if it should be defeated it would render this useless. Its the same old story, try to please everyone you will end up pleasing no one. Oh well lets see some voting.
Aggie

	25-10-2002 02:42									#12
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Well, THIS poll isn't official - so it doesn't really matter.

Aggie,

I suggest that you/we start a pre-poll discussion to seek options in a poll on war aims. Then we can post an OFFICIAL poll on war aims at the conclusion of that pre-poll discussion.

	25-10-2002 02:51									#13
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Be very carefull setting up such a poll. Consider, official polls need 50%+1.

Now, should we have 6 options all fairly evenly matched, no option will win, even if it does claim a majority. Perhaps you would best be served making a grouping poll? Where one group is BASICALLY for short wars, another BASICALLY for longer wars, but still even lest someone declares it as being bias towards one of those groups.

Very touchy, making that poll official...It may best be left unofficial to avoid the 50% + 1. It would still serve to let you know the opinion of the public, but not be bound by the laws of the CoL.

Just something to think on.

	25-10-2002 04:10									#14
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All of France!

	25-10-2002 04:41									#15
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I voted abstain, Im for the war, but only to get the golden age and then make peace asap with whatever gains we can make in the mandatory 5 turns before france will agree to peace.

	25-10-2002 04:42									#16
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Oh and I wouldn't take their southern cities, Id rather have them as a buffer between us and Rome, but I havent looked at a world map in a while so maybe that doesnt even make sense in the current situation.

	25-10-2002 06:58									#17
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I've never said we had to keep all of the cities, I just want to take out France as a player so they won't be in our way anymore.

	25-10-2002 12:15									#18
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It would be nice to prevent our French-Apolyton citizens from trying to rejoin their motherland. If they no longer have a motherland, problem solved.

	25-10-2002 12:48									#19
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Ghenghis and Skanky Burns both summed up my thoughts in the last two posts following each other.

The French may not be a huge problem for us militarily now, but they might later, and they are the weakest nation right now. It may be impossible to intimidate us then, but strategically it is better to have these french conquests; all of the them.

also, less risk of our cities falling to French control culturally, it's a long shot but it's a good point, nonetheless

	26-10-2002 01:06									#20
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I agree with Meshelic, Shanky Burns, and Ghengis Farb.

	26-10-2002 10:42									#21
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Go over to the official war poll with France thread...

E_T has offered a very compelling argument in favor of limited war with France rather than complete annexation because the change in Contagion's rank will increase its corruption&waste... thus significantly delaying the construction of our Forbidden Palace... (not to mention the myriad other adverse effects upon other cities in the Persian annexation).

While others such as myself had previously argued for limited war, E_T has now provided the quantitative analysis which demonstrates the superiority of a limited war for our interests.

	26-10-2002 15:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Go over to the official war poll with France thread... E_T has offered a very compelling argument in favor of limited war with France rather than complete annexation because the change in Contagion's rank will increase its corruption&waste... thus significantly delaying the construction of our Forbidden Palace... (not to mention the myriad other adverse effects upon other cities in the Persian annexation). While others such as myself had previously argued for limited war, E_T has now provided the quantitative analysis which demonstrates the superiority of a limited war for our interests.

Once again we don't have to keep ll of the cities. We can spread them out so that they do not impact the corruption as much.

The important thing is to elimate France as a player thus ending their nationalities hositility towards us in out cities.

Need I remind you that we are also trying to flip some 6 cities into our empire so an argument to avoid taking 3 cities is very hollow as we are already trying to take another 6.

	26-10-2002 20:29									#23
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We could move those cities, but if we do so, then in the spirit of the new appolytonian enlightment movement, i say we must not starve those frenchies!

just rush workers to lower the pop, then disband the city, we have the cash for this.
if this can be agreed upon, then let us annex france. If not, we can still annex france- but no starvation please.

	26-10-2002 23:25									#24
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As I posted in another thread, the AI will happily accept cities as gifts, even though it won't trade for them. So, we could rid ourselves of select cities and improve relations with someone at the same time.

	27-10-2002 01:34									#25
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It would be funny if we could give it to one of the lost civs. Just think of the corruption they'll suffer from.
EDIT: On second thought, here's an idea: we pick a French city that we don't want and invest in the culture of the surrounding cities. Then we give the city to a lost civ or an otherwise remote civ (the Aztecs or the English), wait for it to flip and then give it to another civ again. That way we can gift it over and over again and improve our relations.

	27-10-2002 01:42									#26
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Good idea. The Aztecs (or English or someone else) would probably be better, since we'll have to wait till we can sell the lost civ's contacts to gift it to one of them.

	27-10-2002 10:00									#27
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Here's an image of the proposed consolidation before it was voted into oblivion:

	28-10-2002 01:32									#28
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This poll seems pointless to me; if we start this war and France bribes someone and ultimately the conflict is widened, then we'll have to reconsider our position. If that doesn't happen, well then it doesn't make sense to half-step through it and leave them with a few weak cities that will ultimately be absorbed by someone else.

	28-10-2002 05:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Reddawg This poll seems pointless to me; if we start this war and France bribes someone and ultimately the conflict is widened, then we'll have to reconsider our position. If that doesn't happen, well then it doesn't make sense to half-step through it and leave them with a few weak cities that will ultimately be absorbed by someone else.

This poll was just to find out where most people stood. It is pointless in the fact that it will have no impact on the war in France, that has been written in stone and we will NOT take all of France. I stated in the first post that it was unofficial.

I simply believed that a large number of Apolytonians would have supported the elimination of France while others believed far more citizens abhored the idea.

	28-10-2002 10:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Reddawg This poll seems pointless to me; if we start this war and France bribes someone and ultimately the conflict is widened, then we'll have to reconsider our position. If that doesn't happen, well then it doesn't make sense to half-step through it and leave them with a few weak cities that will ultimately be absorbed by someone else.

I concur to a degree -- our end goal may indeed be determined by what events occur during the French "Golden Age Causing" War, however, I think people should put to rest the notion that France will bribe anyone into attacking us.

They did once in the past and we learned our lesson from it. From now on we sell technology and/or maps to enemy civs just before the attack so that we empty their coffers prior to the war. So long as they are broke they cannot buy allies.

--Togas