27-10-2002 00:18									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Hey now, we "Bought" the southwest fair and square.

We only bought a little corner of it, IIRC. We just "convinced" them to give us the rest.

	27-10-2002 00:20									#92
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If they were out cold, they could have at least attempted to disarm them. I don't have any sympathy for the terrorists, but it worries me whenever a security force takes the most expedient path.

	27-10-2002 00:20									#93
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Why?

	27-10-2002 00:24									#94
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Because civil and human rights aren't expedient. Once the state feels it's allowed to run roughsod of the rights of criminals, it isn't a far step to run roughshod over the rights of civilians if it's for the greater good.

	27-10-2002 00:27									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We only bought a little corner of it, IIRC. We just "convinced" them to give us the rest.

Not true.

As The History Guy says we forked over some $15 million to Mexico at the end of the Mexican-American war. Mostly to make us feel good, I imagine.

I guess it was one of those "We can either give you cheap price for it, or no price for it" situations.

	27-10-2002 00:29									#96
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Lonestar is correct.

	27-10-2002 00:33									#97
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Ned, I meant to be as technical as possible to avoid this one, because this slipped my mind.. and now you did it .
I won't say anything to that, you might be right. Although I consider this action to be the only way in this particular situation, when there are hostages.
And I have changed my views on the ME situation quite a bit anyway. Let's not turn this one to another ME thread..

To make additional comment on this particular situation in Russia, when you have a big group of terrorists with lots of hostages and it's looking bad, like they might actually kill them. They (the Russians) realize that negotiations has only two options 1. Lie to the terrorists that they are ready to meet their demands (no way they would do it in reality) or 2. Make another offer. They did number 2, they offered them not to kill them if they give themselves up now.
You risk by making choice number 1. You could lie, but then again they must have thought of that and confirm it from outside, so number 1 is out of the question. Too risky.
So you go for the second option. You know it already, that they won't give up that easily. You know it's now 2 options left. Either they start killing and bomb the place or they wimp out and give themselves up, knowing they will be treated roughly. They are there, and making it personal, so you know with their weaponry and attitude they can really kill the hostages. Are you really going to wait to the end and see if they wimp out or not? Of course not. You take the first chance you get for attacking, which might have a chance. There might not be another chance. Russians saw the opening and took it. That's the only way to do it. With those kinds of terrorists, you don't simply play the game of chess and trust they are not able to act. You play more simple game, suspect the worst, act when it's possible, kill every terrorist inside.

	27-10-2002 00:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If they were out cold, they could have at least attempted to disarm them. I don't have any sympathy for the terrorists, but it worries me whenever a security force takes the most expedient path.

The terrorists still had explosives wrapped around thier bodies. The spec opps guys apparently wanted to leave nothing to chance.

Lonestar: Mea Culpa. I hadn't heard of the payment before.

	27-10-2002 00:36									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lonestar is correct.

Of course I am! The sun of P-Cola hasn't baked my brain that much!


yet.

	27-10-2002 00:55									#100
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Don't let it go to your head. Even a broken clock is right twice a day . . . unless it uses an electric or LED display.

	27-10-2002 02:51									#101
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apparantly, the Russian special force did not use stun gas when they entered, but nerve gas. Highly letal. A great deal of hostages and hostage takers died because of it. It was not a clean raid at all...

	27-10-2002 04:35									#102
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If it had been nerve gas, then we woud have many hundreads of dead.

There are many types os gasses that could have been used: many people react badly to simple tear gas, and whatever was used was ceratinly stronger. The fact that the Russian forces won't say what gas was used makes me think that either a) its a new concoction of the Russian secret services and they don't want the recipe to get out, or b) they used a ban substance. Many types of gasses, not just lethat ones, are banned under Chemical weapons conventions.

	27-10-2002 04:52									#103
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545 hostages in hospital!

	27-10-2002 04:54									#104
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I read that they may have used CO2.
But I doubt that now.

	27-10-2002 05:03									#105
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if 545 are in the hospital, it's not a simple reaction towards a stronger form of tear gas. No question about that.

Another thing pointing towards nerve gas: some of the hostage takers were found dead sitting in their chairs (they didn't even get the time to get up). it hit them so swiftly, and so severely, that they died within seconds. No form of stun gas is that fast, and that letal.

	27-10-2002 05:44									#106
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Yes, they used nerve gas, however what type of them is classified.

So no, it wasn't a clean operation... However Russia probably won't admit that.

	27-10-2002 05:44									#107
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Seems like a well carried out op by the Russians, only the aftermath still shows traces of the Soviet-era lack of accountability.

And BTW, I heard somewhere that not using the word terrorist in press reports is to protect reporters in "hot spots". A reasonable policy IMO, unless one wants to go get the news on site personally...

	27-10-2002 06:13									#108
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The Russians used sleeping gas.

It definitely was nearly a clean operation... but the problem was Sonic, since you are in apparent denial, there were 50 gunman. ACCEPT THE FACTS.

	27-10-2002 06:24									#109
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quote: The Russians used sleeping gas.

what's that?

anyway it did more than just make them fall asleep, the majority of hostages are hospitalized.

	27-10-2002 06:39									#110
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Fez, no, even in news it was claimed they used nerve gas. In interview some chief of Lithuanian counter terrorist force ("YPT" or "Aitvaras") said that the aftermath wouldn't be so after sleeping gas and that definitely nerve gas was used.

	27-10-2002 07:37									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf what's that? anyway it did more than just make them fall asleep, the majority of hostages are hospitalized.

Sleeping gas causes disorientation... it is like nerve gas... well actually it is a type of nerve gas...

Nerve gas isn't that bad... I got hit with a canister fired by riot police before when in Ecuador...

The casualities I believe were minimized. And the Russians conducted an excellent operation. Before you go on your personal crusades think.

	27-10-2002 07:58									#112
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I don't think there is such a thing as "stun gas" or "sleeping gas". The concentrations needed to make medical anesthetic gases effective is too high to be practical in this type of usage. On the other hand what I generally think as "nerve gas", such as Sabun are way too dangerous for this sort of usage.

	27-10-2002 08:05									#113
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Wait a minute... nerve gas would actually be referring to chemical weapons... like what Saddam Hussein uses. The stuff the Russians most likely used for this crisis was tear gas.

	27-10-2002 08:10									#114
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Here are a few links of smoke grenades that only let out smoke (non lethal):

American Varients:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/xl96.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/xm98xm99.htm

Can't find anything on Russian stuff... probably similar to what the US has...

	27-10-2002 08:22									#115
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Anesthesia is actually quite dangerous. Hospitals always recommend people not to eat and drink for at least 6 hours before it is applied. Paientsunder full narcosis usually can't breathe on their own and need to be artificially supplied with oxygen. Finally, there are people who react very badly to anesthetics.

	27-10-2002 08:26									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I don't think there is such a thing as "stun gas" or "sleeping gas". The concentrations needed to make medical anesthetic gases effective is too high to be practical in this type of usage. On the other hand what I generally think as "nerve gas", such as Sabun are way too dangerous for this sort of usage.

Doc, could CO2 do this? I've heard it's more toxic in concentration than most people realize.

	27-10-2002 09:08									#117
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Doc, could CO2 do this? I've heard it's more toxic in concentration than most people realize.

You'd have to use enough to partially displace the oxygen in the atmosphere. I think you have to replace about 5 to 10% of the gas volume with the CO2 to cause asphyxia. In a place as big as a theater that would be a lot of gas. Assuming a space 200 by 100 by 20 feet that would be 20,000 to 40,000 cubic feet of CO2.

	27-10-2002 09:13									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Anesthesia is actually quite dangerous. Hospitals always recommend people not to eat and drink for at least 6 hours before it is applied. Paientsunder full narcosis usually can't breathe on their own and need to be artificially supplied with oxygen. Finally, there are people who react very badly to anesthetics.

You intubate them first. Generally they give the victim "pre-medication" which includes an anti-cholinergic to reduce secretions and a sedative to make them drowsy. That's followed by a quick IV sedative like Valium to put him down sufficiently enough to allow the placement on an endotracheal tube.

I learned this watching "ER". You should watch it too. It's very educational, and often accurate as well.

	27-10-2002 17:16									#119
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quote: The Russians used sleeping gas.

quote: Sleeping gas causes disorientation

quote: The stuff the Russians most likely used for this crisis was tear gas.

false, false and false. 150+ people died because of the gas. Also, it worked way too fast for standard tear gas. In the waco raid, many were killed by the tear gas. However, that took some time to set in, while this gas killed instantly. Some of the people didn't even get time to get up out of their chair when the gas hit them, that's NOT the case with tear gas. Also, the number of deads do not correspond with the normal ammount of people allergic to tear gas.

something else was used here...something not quite so innocent as simple tear gas...

	27-10-2002 17:39									#120
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118 hostages + 50 terrorists dead...that's 168 people.

CNN links nerve gas to the deaths...

Putin: "Please forgive us. The memory of the victims must unite all of us."

the Russian interior minister admitted the use of sleep induced nerve gas. Strange that more people died than fell asleep...