29-10-2002 04:40									#1
	Informal Survey & Discussion about Possible Great Leader Get a bigger avatar today!

This is an Informal Survey & discussion about the possibility of a GL and our Options due to timing. This is NOT an Official Poll! Please read any and all discussions about this before Voting.

First, some information that I had posted in the General Discussion about Middle Age Wonders thread.

quote: Great Wonders of the Middle Ages: 1) J.S. Bach Cathedral (JSB) - 600 Sheilds (480 other Civs). Makes 2 unhappy citizens content per city. Requires Music Theory. Doesn't expire. 2) Smith's Trading Company (STC) - 600 Sheilds (480 other Civs). Pays Maintainance Cost for the following: Marketplaces (1); Harbors (1); Banks (1) & Airports (2). Requires Economics. Doesn't expire. 3) Magellan's Voyage (MV) - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Increases Naval Unit movement by 1. Requires Navigation. Doesn't expire. 4) Newtons University (NU) - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Doubles the Science output only in the City that it's built in. Requires Theory of Gravity. Doesn't expire. 5) Shakespeare's Theater - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Makes 8 unhappy citizens content only in the city that it's built in. Requires Free Artistry. Doesn't expire. Small Wonders of the Middle Ages: 1) Forbidden Palace - 200 Sheilds. Acts like a 2nd Palace for Corruption/Waste purposes. Requirement has been met. Doesn't expire. . [snip] . 3) Heroic Epic - 200 Sheilds. Increases the chance of a Great Leader being generated. Requires a Victorious Army to build. Doesn't expire.

And here is the current status in the Wonder Races:


As we can see, Rome will be completing JSB’s very soon and will not be available to us for a possible GL Wonder. Greece, Germany, England & Russia will change their production to Smith’s Trading Co. when Rome competes JSB. The Aztecs might have acquired Economics by that time, being the only one of all of the others that will be able to possibly change. If not, they have had a Victorious Army and if they haven’t built the Heroic Epic, could change to that and have it finished.

Of the 4 that can change to STC, Russia looks to be the front runner with Germany a close second. The chart does not show the effects of Production Waste & Production loss due to Specialist. Moscow is currently size 12 and they only have 2 ‘native’ Luxuries and appear to only have one more being Imported from England (3 total). So the actual time that they will need to complete STC will be closer to 10 turns, instead of 3 (likely of 8 turns). Hamburg’s maximum production is assumed to be with little or no city growth. As they have grown through the years and with a bit of Production Waste, they will have a completion time of closer to the maximum of 22 turns (I believe it’s more like 17 turns).

Once STC is completed, only a few of the above cities could change to Magellan’s, because of their locations. Greece’s Corinth is the only city that could make the change, all of the others will have been wasted shields. Theory of Gravity could also have been researched and Germany will most likely be the one to get it Newton’s University. [HMMMM, two science wonders in very close proximity to our Borders. Otto, you had better watch out…].

We will be starting the War in 790 to 810AD. This war, either with a limited scope or full force, will be very short. We need to keep in mind the overall timing of possible events. A new GL will not be created until the present one is use for some purpose. If a GL is produced, what will our options be:

1) If we decide to build an Army so that we can built the Heroic Epic, the HE will not be completed until after the war is long over. This will also allow us to build the Military Acadamy, when we have Military Tradition. Also, the only cities that are really capable now of building the HE (in a timely manner) are scheduled to build the FP & New Palace (or supporting the War effort).

2) If we want to use the GL to hasten the FP construction, then we will have to wait at least 4-5 turns for the GL to cross the county from the war front to Contagion. The FP will also be available soon, hopefully right after the next elections, without any help. Their could be many Opportunities for another GL that would be lost while he’s on the long trek. If the GL is generated towards the end of the War, this might not be that much of a problem.

3) If we want to use the GL for a Great Wonder, we would have to quickly move it to a nearby city so that he can complete the Wonder in the quickest manner. As JSB will be out of the question to build, it’s not part of this discussion. Shakespeare's Theater, IMHO, is only good for storing Shields that can be used towards Universal Suffrage in the Industrial Age. We would likely only acquire Free Artistry through a trade, after it has been sufficiently devalued. It will also not be part of this discussion. The choices are:

a) We can currently build STC, but Moscow might still beat us to it. It would save us a large sum of Lytons per turn, that can be used for Science and/or Improvement rushes.

b) We might also acquire Theory of Gravity through a trade and have NU. This will increase our Science output. And their a a few good canidates for NU placement that are close to the front.

c) We could now also build MV. This would be best to use for something else (IMHO) but is part of this discussion. We might, sometime in the future, launch a fleet to liberate the Gems from the Zulu, so this might be of help to us at that time.

Again, I’d like there to be some discussion (at least 1 day) before anyone fills out the survey.

This discussion is now open. The survey will be open for 7 days.

E_T

	29-10-2002 05:03									#2
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Of the wonders, are any civs building them yet? The plan for Newton was to develop and grow Ghengistown to where it could build it (half hills, half grassland and almost all river tiles).

If we got the GL early in the war I would prefer using him up quick, for possibly an Army. Then filling it up and gaining a victory with it.

	29-10-2002 05:18									#3
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I believe that we only have one truly viable choice.

First I will give negative reasons for the choices I didn't pick:
1)Army- Sure it would be nice to have an army now, but we are so close to Military Tradition, that a Knight Army would be outdated almost as soon as it is built.

2)FP Construction- During our last war I think we got GL on subsequent turnchats. If we took the time to send him across the country, we truly could loose a second GL. Additionaly, the FP will get built on its own. Every civ can build the FP so we won't ever lose the ability to build it.

3b)Newton's University- An intreging Idea to have NU, but I would be willing to let the germans build it in the same city as Cornipicus Observatory, then take both by force. We would end up with both wonders in the same city. They have compounding effects.

3c)Magelleon's Voyage- In most of my games I consider this a MUST HAVE. A +1 movement to all navel units is such a huge bonus. However, we are playing on a map where we are on the largest continet by far. Future wars will be fought on land here, only little skirmishes on the other continents. This decreases the value of MV considerably.

My Choice:
3a) Adam Smith's Trading Company- I have said it before and I will say it again. Money runs the world. The more you have, the better your Empire. We currently have 40 cities. Imagine each with a marketplace. That is 40 Lpt maintance. With STC, we would have at least 40 Lpt all the time. Same with banks. Another 40 Lpt maintance. Now think about Airports. They cost 2 Lpt each. That would be 80 Lpt. It also pays for harbors (which I commonly forget). All our coastal cities (19) will have a harbor. STC will save us there also. Lets total this up: Adam Smith's Trading Company could be worth 179 Lpt. What could we do with 179 extra Lytons per turn?

As per ET's request, I will not vote until I hear other arguments (though I dought I will be convinced).

	29-10-2002 06:30									#4
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I believe that we only have one truly viable choice. . [snip] . 3b)Newton's University- An intreging Idea to have NU, but I would be willing to let the germans build it in the same city as Cornipicus Observatory, then take both by force. We would end up with both wonders in the same city. They have compounding effects.

Actually, Copernicus's Observatory is in Berlin and NU might be in Hamburg. But they still are SO CLOSE to the boarder. And Stuttgard, whis is current front runner for MV, is right next to Berlin. All three are within 'smellin' distance from us.

quote: My Choice: 3a) Adam Smith's Trading Company- I have said it before and I will say it again. Money runs the world. The more you have, the better your Empire. We currently have 40 cities. Imagine each with a marketplace. That is 40 Lpt maintance. With STC, we would have at least 40 Lpt all the time. Same with banks. Another 40 Lpt maintance. Now think about Airports. They cost 2 Lpt each. That would be 80 Lpt. It also pays for harbors (which I commonly forget). All our coastal cities (19) will have a harbor. STC will save us there also. Lets total this up: Adam Smith's Trading Company could be worth 179 Lpt. What could we do with 179 extra Lytons per turn?

I do agree, STC would be the best for us overall, now and later down the road.

quote: As per ET's request, I will not vote until I hear other arguments (though I dought I will be convinced).

Thanks, I hope that this will be more of an informed discussion than a poll. I still wanted to be able to gauge the feelings of the population, through the survey/poll. If the opportunity does arise and we get a GL, most of the people will have a firm grasp of the full options and some of the timing issues that will surround the final decision.

Personally, I haven't voted either. I just wish there was a way of voting multiple times, like on a real survey (or to rank your choises) without having to make a long reply post.

E_T

	29-10-2002 06:41									#5
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I'm definately leaning towards STC for the reasons donegeal outlined. It seems to me that would give us the largest net benefit, now and in the future.

	29-10-2002 07:07									#6
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For me I think it's MV all the way. That added bonus is great, and you cannot rule out the possibility that we may be forced to use this advantage in the future. I think it is worth it in the long run. Remember that there is a significant amount of gems on a Zulu island out there (and those are really nice looking), MV would help us out there hugely.

I'm also partial to a succesful Army that we can use to build Heroic Epic to get more leaders more frequently...

Newton's University is a good choice as well. I'm still all for MV though

	29-10-2002 07:13									#7
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I already voted STC... IF we can build it (and that's a big if), that would certainly be the most powerful.

	29-10-2002 07:25									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I already voted STC... IF we can build it (and that's a big if), that would certainly be the most powerful.

Yes, that's the main rub. We might just be ready to have the GL to rush it and have Moscow build it a turn before. That's why we'll have to watch the timing on this, if a GL does come forward.

E_T

	29-10-2002 07:55									#9
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Assuming Bach's is out of reach, Smith's Trading Company would be by far the most potent wonder, IMO. I'd go for that or, failing that, rush the FP.

	29-10-2002 08:03									#10
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Yup, adams is the best if we can get as money rules the world.

	29-10-2002 09:16									#11
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I think we should build an army to open up the Heroic Epic and the Military Academy (and eventually the Pentagon) over finishing the FP. The FP is going to finish ON ITS OWN within a reasonable amount of time by E_T's calculations... and, best of all, no-one can build our FP and prevent us from completing it ourselves

STC is definately first choice...

It's just a question of whether there's another big wonder WORTH more than an army if we can't get STC.

	29-10-2002 09:30									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The FP is going to finish ON ITS OWN within a reasonable amount of time by E_T's calculations... and, best of all, no-one can build our FP and prevent us from completing it ourselves

Exactly.

	29-10-2002 12:47									#13
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Can we have a better poll ie where we are given the option to rank.

Most people are in agreement that STC is the best but the real question is what do we do if the Ruskies beat us to it.

	29-10-2002 21:41									#14
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Could we get updated estimate on the # of turns from now both the Forbiden Palace will be built and when the existing Palace will be relocated?

I would sugest that if we get a GL and Rome hasn't built JSB yet that we use our embassy (if possible) to investiage the city for an update.

For Smith's Trading Company, don't forget that St Petersburg and Cologne could be switched to something else so that Moscow or Hamburg could build it quicker.

When we get the GL is also a factor in my mind.

And why isn't Relocate the existing Palace an option?

	31-10-2002 02:31									#15
	An 820AD update to this discussion Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Here is the Current Wonder Race chart:



Rome did complete JSB in 790AD. Greece, Germany & Russia where able to change production to STC or MV. London, Salamanca, Babylon, Malinalco, St. Petersburg, Sardis, Cologne & Lyons lost out on their production due to the inability to change. Warwick started building MV in 790AD.

Moscow should complete STC sometime in the next 3 to 4 turns (guesstamate). Germany might have Theory of Gravity by that time (they had gotten Mil Trad in 790AD), if they didn’t have to reduce their science output do to our Tech Whoring in 780AD. They should be able to change Hamburg’s production to NU and have it completed right away. All of the other cities would not be able to change and loose a large number of shields.

The race for MV looks to belong to the Greeks, as Corinth seems to have a high Production output and appears to be ahead in the race.

Again, the only chance to have any of these Wonders is to get a Great Leader and use him as soon as possible. If we do get a GL, we will likely need to check out Moscow and see where they actually will complete STC. This will allow us to fully weigh our options, if a GL comes forward.

Personally, If we can get a GL in time, we should go for STC. We have no guarantee that we would be able to get Theory from Germany within time (if they get it). If we can’t get the GL in time, I think that an Army of Cavalry would be in our best interest. Our options are quickly running out and we might get really lucky.

E_T

	31-10-2002 02:51									#16
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Having seen the dramatic impact our golden age status has on the timetable for building the FP, I'd now vote for spending the leader (assuming Smith's is not available) on an army, particularly if one could be generated in time to send it into battle and get the victory prerequisite for building the Heroic Epic.

	31-10-2002 02:54									#17
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E_T, neither the AI nor human is allowed to sign a GPT deal that would result in them running a deficit under their current tax system.

This most likely means that Bismark was already planning on upgrading Knights to Calvary. Our deal will slow down how fast he can do so, and so our deal helps world peace.

	31-10-2002 02:57									#18
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Agreed with Robber Baron (and E_T), unless the Great Leader arrives in the last combat of the French war, using him for Newton's in a good place (even assuming we can get it) removes ths possibility of further leaders during the war.

	31-10-2002 03:55									#19
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I'd say, if we can get it, let's build STC because money does run the world. Secondly, if we are not so lucky, lets go for the army and start paving the way for more great leaders to come.

	31-10-2002 05:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn E_T, neither the AI nor human is allowed to sign a GPT deal that would result in them running a deficit under their current tax system. This most likely means that Bismark was already planning on upgrading Knights to Calvary. Our deal will slow down how fast he can do so, and so our deal helps world peace.

That's true, but if you get then broke, with Zero income, they will most likely change their Slider, so that they will have money available. This, of course, make them available to Squeezeing more money from them (and possibley having them do it again).

E_T

	31-10-2002 05:17									#21
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STC; we are not a naval power by any stretch of the word.

	31-10-2002 18:26									#22
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Whatever we do, let's NOT build an army. I seriously doubt that we’ll have any need for armies in future wars, and we certainly don’t need one for this war even if we could field it in time (they're really more fun than useful anyway). I think I'd prefer any wonder to an army.

	31-10-2002 19:19									#23
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There's an alternative missing: Build the Palace. The FP is going to be built shortly anyways - why not use a GL to rush it's counterpart in Timeline?

	31-10-2002 20:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph Whatever we do, let's NOT build an army. I seriously doubt that we’ll have any need for armies in future wars, and we certainly don’t need one for this war even if we could field it in time (they're really more fun than useful anyway). I think I'd prefer any wonder to an army.

The nice thing about having the Army, its that you can build the HE, to help get a GL in the next war. THen you save (at least I do) the Mil Acadamy as a shield storage build, then change to the Wonder that I want to get after I get the tech. Especially during the ealier Industrial Age.

Once I get Hoover's Dam, I finally build it in a City that I can get the best (or one of the best) built times for an Army. I work on getting three (for the Pentagon). I need be, I can start building an Army, and switch to a Modern Wonder (timing is everything). I use the Pentagon for it's express purpose or as another sheild storage for another Modern Wonder.

Also, I like using an Army, to help crack that tough defence in a size 20 City. Once you get past that first Rifleman, it's normally downhill from there.

They do have their uses.

E_T

	31-10-2002 21:39									#25
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Randolph, we are going to need one additional war of expansion after the French war because of where the FP is being built.

I'm leaning towards, after the French war is over, shift all our forces around to where Calvary are pre-positioned in spots to attack England and agressively defend against Germany with the Knighs on the other borders.

This way, when Germany attacks England, we don't need to wait a few turns upgrading Knights to Calvary so we can annex as much of England as possible ahead of Germany.

If Germany builds a second Science boosting Wonder, they may be a tempting target as well. Perhaps this be done when a German-Aztec war breaks out.

	31-10-2002 21:47									#26
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As far as using the GL so that we can make the HE so that we will get more GLs this is only an effective strategy if we expect to have 48+ more elite combats (this is where the shift from 1/16 to 1/12 makes up for the lost GL), but even at this point one has to consider that most of the wonders that will be difficult to beat the AI to are now and not later (we don’t really need a GL for HD or SETI because we’ll likely get them anyway).

Secondly things like placeholders, and 'break through' armies are niceties, not necessities... I'd rather have a wonder than have a placeholder and save a few troops (but that is just me).

(no offence intended)