06-11-2002 05:19									#1
	What should be done with Khufu? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Please vote here. Discussion on this topic is already occuring at this thread.

Choices:
Create an army
Rush the palace
Save him for Issac Newton
Save him for a different Wonder in the next age (Sufferage, Darwin, Hoover)

Poll open for 3 days. Unofficial, of course.

--Togas

	06-11-2002 05:31									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Army! and battle!

The Heroic Epic can help us get more GLs. Then we rush The Hoover Dam and others.

Build one wonder now with the rush, and many later by shields? Or build Newton's by shields, and many wonders later by rush?

That is the decision.

	06-11-2002 07:05									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

An Army is the best course of action, and certainly the most enticing...

	06-11-2002 07:14									#4
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I say save him, not necessarily for a specific thing.

An Army is useless unless we go to war as it must win a combat to trigger anything.

We may be able to build Newton or Hoover, but there is no drawback to saving him since we aren't in combat with anyone else.

If we suddenly go to war I would say pop an Army on the front and go attacking. Then use the next GLs for wonders.

	06-11-2002 07:38									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Rush the Palace.

If we use a leader to build an army, I'd rather we actually be at war.

	06-11-2002 08:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Rush the Palace. If we use a leader to build an army, I'd rather we actually be at war.

I think that with the recent immigrants from this game to the PTW demo game, our numbers have fallen greatly. Many have already given up on this game because they feel "it is impossible to lose" this one, because of our previous successes. Too bad, but with that being the case we need to think about what we want to do.

I say conquest is the best plan we can have. If people are leaving this game because it's already set in stone how we win, why not make things much more interesting and become either communist or democratic, and wage war on the English...the Zulu...the Greeks, Germans, Aztecs, russians....there is really nothing that can stand in our way.

Why delay this game for another handful of months? Why don't we just conquer everyone and end it all, with us as the mighty rulers of the world? There is certainly no shame in THAT...

	06-11-2002 09:59									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Hear Hear
I agree with the above statement.

To arms all and sundry.

Total WAR

	06-11-2002 12:29									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

After voting for Palace I took another look at the map and realised that the later the Palace is built the more UberIsle is going to develop as corruption is much less while the Palace is in Apolyton.

So -1 for Palace and +1 for..... I dont know, maybe army.

	06-11-2002 17:20									#9
	Suffering from ads?

Why are people voting for an army?
1. Heroic epic? Increasing the leader chance from 1/16 to 1/12 will only really increase leader production after 48 elite battles (rather unlikely to happen during the period where leaders are worth much of anything).
2. For the army itself (and war academy)? Our more difficult wars are behind us, if we've done this well so far we don't need an army now. Our biggest threat is a multi-front war in which case we'll need divided forces not concentrated.

I guess I'm just not a big army fan.

	06-11-2002 19:30									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If we want to use the leader immediately, I have to vote for Palace. Army would be my first choice if we were in a war...but that ain't the case.

The better option is to save him (for an Army). We are not at war, so we cannot get another leader anyway. Also if we wait, we can build a tank army.

I change my vote to wait....I think?

	06-11-2002 19:39									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Seems like a no-brainer. Our palace and FP locations dictate future wars with Greece and England. We need to use the GL now so that we'll be able to get more GLs from the wars with Greece and England and we need an army for a heroic epic to increase our chances of getting GLs.

	06-11-2002 20:32									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I'm voting for Army, since I too (like Shiber and others) anticipate wars eventually with Greece and England, and since we have a pile of cavalry that will eventually grow obsolete. After a respectable building period, as we begin preparing for the next round of conquest, we should prebuild the Heroic Epic, in anticipation of leader generation as the war deepens.

	06-11-2002 21:07									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Go Army!
This should be the only GL we spend on an army.

It is sort of late to build the Heroic Epic, but that's ok. the real reason for this Army is to be able to build the Military Academy and the Pentagon.

Doesn't the thought of size 4 Modern Armor Armies give you goose bumps? The challenge will be keeping the AI's in the game long enough.

Roleplay

It was one of those beautiful indian summer days on the 5th day of November, in the 1225th year of the banana that President Khufu stood atop the reviewing stand at the Avignon Field. An absolutely beautiful day for a parade. And that is just what was in store the Citizenry. Every turn since that fateful November day back in the 870th year of the banana, Apolytonians the world over pause at this time to reflect on the significance of the events made on this very field. Those who can make the journey to Avignon Field are rewarded with a grand parade that somehow or another keeps topping last turns parade. The first parade was celebrated at the conclusion of the Apolyton Golden Age in 1000 AB

President Khufu takes a special interest in this day since he is a direct descendent of that last Knight to enter harms way in the last battle of the Second French War. And that is what this parade is all about, thought Khufu. Not the final act of cleansing the world of French leadership that is taught to the wee ones in public schools all over the land of the banana, but rather the transformation of that last brave Knight into a true Great Leader. A Great Leader who remained true to the way of the warrior and caused the formation of Apllyton's first grand Army. Yes, there would be no parade today if that lone Knight had taken the path followed by Ramses and Cheops before him and allowed his destiny to be squandered on a mere awe inspiring construction project.

Khufu snapped back to the present as the Apolyton National Marine Band began to play "The Victors", one of the Band Directors numerous great military style marches. Khufu glanced at the program and then to the watch on his wrist and noted that his address to the nation would begin in about an hour's time. But for now, Khufu decided to take in the spectacle as if he were a mere Citizen. He was not required to speak until the conclusion of the Premier playing of the Director's latest work, "Stars and Bananas Forever". But before that there would be the trooping of the ceremonial Palace Cavalry, the 15th Modern Armour Army Group, the 4th Mechanized Infantry Division, and the 17th Radar Artillery Regiment. His stump speach could wait. Let the Parade begin.

/Roleplay

	06-11-2002 22:44									#14
	Got spare money?

I voted for the most peaceful option: Palace.

Only Wonder left that's worth rushing is Women's Sufferage. (We should be able to build Hoover Dam on our own and maybe Theory of Evolution as well.)

Frankly, I think most of the AIs seperately right now are so easy to knock over (assuming they don't join up), that Women's Sufferage isn't neccesary even remaining a Democracy.

If Army wins, I predict the Hawk party will start calling for it to be used.

	06-11-2002 23:58									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I voted for the most peaceful option: Palace.

How pathetic. What does the Palace move accomplish?

Answer very little. The principal effects of a Palace build are to change which cities are productive, and to change the locations where culture flips are probable. It does little in the way of actually increasing overall productivity.

Why waste a rare GL for so little?

quote: Only Wonder left that's worth rushing is Women's Sufferage. (We should be able to build Hoover Dam on our own and maybe Theory of Evolution as well.)

Well, atleast we agree on ToE. Women's Suffrage value is inversely porportional to the number of luxuries you control outright. We now control 4 and after the Greek campaign will control 5. This plus Police stations are enough for the oscilating war style under Democracy.

While we should be able to Build Hoovers, why wait?
Try to imagine what the land of the banana will look like about the time Hoover's Dam appears in our build lists. We will probably have many Factories, (say a dozen for purposes of discussion) that would average 20 native shields, 10 Factory assisted shields, and potentially another 10 Hydroplant assisted shields. Furthur imagine that our top shield city has 30 native shields.

How do you evaluate a GL for Hoovers? Hint: It's much larger than the stated Shield value. You have to include the additional shields per turn (120/turn in the assumptions above) foregone while being built.

Hoover's Dam is one of the few Wonders that is self funding in terms of shields. If Hoover's were on my buildlist now, I would not be pushing for an Army!

quote: Frankly, I think most of the AIs seperately right now are so easy to knock over (assuming they don't join up), that Women's Sufferage isn't neccesary even remaining a Democracy.

Contradicts 2nd point so I guess there is hope!

quote: If Army wins, I predict the Hawk party will start calling for it to be used.

You can count on it. But we are not actually in a RUSH to obtain the requisite victory condition. We want to get a city developed with enough shield count to matter before attempting the Military Academy. We however, are in a RUSH to get Khufu committed to an Army.

	07-11-2002 00:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by roadcage How pathetic. What does the Palace move accomplish? Answer very little. The principal effects of a Palace build are to change which cities are productive, and to change the locations where culture flips are probable. It does little in the way of actually increasing overall productivity. Why waste a rare GL for so little?

Palace costs more shields to relocate with as many cities as we have than any Industrial Age wonder.

And our overall production increases at the new location.

quote: Well, atleast we agree on ToE. Women's Suffrage value is inversely porportional to the number of luxuries you control outright. We now control 4 and after the Greek campaign will control 5. This plus Police stations are enough for the oscilating war style under Democracy. While we should be able to Build Hoovers, why wait? Try to imagine what the land of the banana will look like about the time Hoover's Dam appears in our build lists. We will probably have many Factories, (say a dozen for purposes of discussion) that would average 20 native shields, 10 Factory assisted shields, and potentially another 10 Hydroplant assisted shields. Furthur imagine that our top shield city has 30 native shields.

We don't need to build any Hydroplants, just build the Hoover Dam in the most productive city with access to river which should have a Factory & Hospital already. Our FP city might be an excelent city to build it in if there's a river there.

quote: How do you evaluate a GL for Hoovers? Hint: It's much larger than the stated Shield value. You have to include the additional shields per turn (120/turn in the assumptions above) foregone while being built. Hoover's Dam is one of the few Wonders that is self funding in terms of shields. If Hoover's were on my buildlist now, I would not be pushing for an Army!

Hoover Dam is also so far in the future that I highly dought we won't be in at least one more war by then, if we are about to get into a war and still have a GL, we'd have to use it right away before the first Elite unit attacked.

	07-11-2002 01:41									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Armies are just more exciting.

	07-11-2002 03:52									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

where is the option of disbanding him????


jeez people, take a joke will ya!

	07-11-2002 07:12									#19
	Put an end to popups!

UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES should he be used to rush either a palace or the forbidden palace... what a waste! No-one else can prevent us from building either of them and both will be built on their own within a semi-reasonable amount of time w/o assistance...

To forgo rushing a wonder or having our first army just to cut some turns off palace construction would be the height of stupidity...

As for whether he should be used for an army or saved for Isaac Newton's, either is good for us.

	08-11-2002 02:59									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

After seeing the stats on corruption waste, I don't like the current location the Palace is being built in.

I'm now supporting Army as marginally more useful than Women's Sufferage.

(To poll monitors, this is "Off Palace On Army.")

Also looking at the stats, if city 1B turns out to have an Iron Works, I think it would be worth it to use a future GL to relocate a Palace there given how far down that city is on our current list of cities resulting in almost 50% waste even with Court House + We Love the King Day combined with the huge number of shields.