06-11-2002 22:48									#1
	making moo2 more difficult Get a bigger avatar today!

i think im good at moo2. So I have the problem that even if i play moo2 in impossible mode i win every time.
Does anyone how i can make more difficult???
i like the game very much, but its boring if you win every time.
Maybe there´s a way to make AI more effective???

	06-11-2002 23:32									#2
	everytime? Get a bigger avatar today!

Maybe you could tell us your favorite custom race and basic tactics. I think most will find it hard to believe you win everytime. Especially since random events will sometimes ruin you.

But I would love to try out some of your setups.

	06-11-2002 23:40									#3
	everytime!!!! its boring! Get a bigger avatar today!

my race mostly are:
unification
creative
subterran
-10 spy
-10 ground attack
-10 ship attack and defense
-and then something like poor or large homeworld not that important

My strategie is:
first getting allies(reaserch and trade treatys), build small empire with much population, and then kill a few other races, capture their colonies, conquer Orion and then defeat antares( with a single doomstar)!
with this strategie i get a score of ca. 1900 at the game summary. is that very much?

	06-11-2002 23:57									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not to be rude or anything, but when I hear that someone wins everytime at impossible, I have to wonder if they are using some under handed methods. Maybe you are the one exception, but they are no real secrets to the game and it is not hard to run into bad layouts. I put it with the claims of winning by turn 110, I keep seeing.
Race -6 Repulsive -2 Ship Attack -2 Ground Combat

Huge universe (173 colonies)
PreWarp tech Organic Rich Antaran On
340% (24 picks left)
Start 1 system, one planet

Time 499 turns 781 pts
5385 pop 5385 pts (? not housed)
6 players elim 300 pts
tech 262 pts
154 captured 154 pts
antarian 250 pts
100 orion 100 pts
score 7155*340 24327 pts
With appx 1000 points just for the std stuff and toss in pop+capture+time 1900 is not much. The map size can be ignored.

	07-11-2002 00:08									#5
	bad layouts? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

in some way you are right.
Sure i can chose race pics which makes my race really discusting. and then the game is more difficult.
But thats not more fun. Why should i try to make me a weak race, and then maybe play the weak race like an idiot.
I want to give my best and have opponents who beat me instead of this. Thats what i call challenging!

	07-11-2002 01:11									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Assuming you pick the race you like and is "good", are you typically playing with:

Antaran attacks?
Huge universe?
Max total enemies?

The reason I ask is that it makes for a very different game if those things are not true. For instance, I believe it was Moomin that posted a very short victory on impossible by choosing the smallest universe, then immediately forming positive relationships with neighbors, being subterranian so he has the most pop, then getting voted in. All in some crazy short amount of time.

I think most people play Impossible, Huge, Max enemies, Antaran attacks, with some custom race that is probably using Psilon based so you don't have to face massive superior tech.

And there are certainly bad layouts. For instance, having your homeworld targeted by a giant amoeba before you've built any ships.

	07-11-2002 01:26									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

i do also choose huge universe, random events, attack antarans and so on. I think this is more fun.
And with amoeba youre right, this is a possibilty to loose, but this normally never happen me.

But to choose a civilzation which is discusting makes no sense i my point of view.

	07-11-2002 05:14									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Nice to be called an idiot by someone who does not even know me. Anyway, the point of the race was not to have fun, but to rack up a good score. To get a max score you need to choose as few positive traits as you can stand. That will of course make the game harder. I am not an expert that never loses, nor do I know everything (althought I can give away a couple dozen IQ points and still get into mensa). I have however played nearly every type of game and race offered in Moo2. I still can not claim to never lose at impossible and I am dubious of those that do. I have posted complete details of games at impossible to prove it can be played without any slight of hand and won. I have challenged all that claim they can win in some sub 150 turns and have yet to see it documented. Anyway I am not here to be antagonistc toward you. I am hear to learn, if anyone has something to consider or a better method, I am all set to be taught.

	07-11-2002 06:02									#9
	gauntlet thrown down Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok. So here's a saved game. Very early (I think first turn even). This is using bazi643's custom race on impossible etc etc.

My challenge is for bazi, yes you, to win with it. No cheats.

I'll keep my copy to compare with your winning map later.

I would also be interested in intermediate saves, for those of us who DON'T win every time on impossible, to learn from. This would also add a lot of credence to your claim and likely prove that there were no cheats. This might be tedious but, it would really open this discussion to what you really wanted to talk about. Once I (and I assume others) are satisfied that nearly every imp game can be won, which I currently do not believe, we can talk about what should be done to make this game harder. That could be an interesting discussion.

Note that I had to change the extension to .SAV from .GAM so that it could be uploaded. You will need to undo this. Let me know if there are any technical problems.

-cheers

Attachment: save9.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	07-11-2002 18:16									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

vmxa 1:
At first i didnt call you an idiot, but the type playing the game with a shitty race pics, because i want to do my best( even in creating a race) but having a challenge eventhough.
And second: i didnt say i win the in less or more than 150 rounds (ussually i takes 300 rounds for me).
But anyway thanks for answering, because im also here to hear other meanings.

Xoham: sorry for my english, but what means tedious?
If i understood you right, you made a save game (with my pics, etc.) which i should play, win and give you then some intermediate saves, so that you can see what i was doing. Right? It will be a pleasure for me. How many saves do you want and at which times? I think i can give them to you this evening or tommorow(because i eventhough have a normal live next to my moo2 addictive )

Tata

Last edited by bazi643 on 07-11-2002 at 18:31

	07-11-2002 23:42									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

To those that learned English as a second language, I highly recommend www.dictionary.com . I use this myself to expand my vocabulary. It is fairly good at guessing even when you do not have the correct spelling.
---
te·di·ous Pronunciation Key (td-s)
adj.
Tiresome by reason of length, slowness, or dullness; boring. See Synonyms at boring.
Obsolete. Moving or progressing very slowly.
----

How about 4 total saves. One where you are about to attack the first enemy colony. A second where you get phasors. Third where you attack Orion. And fourth before the attack on Antares. We won't worry about the turn count. Good luck!

	07-11-2002 23:50									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

bazi643 I was just teasing you on the name part, forget it. I know you did not say you won in 150 turns, it was just a comparison. I hope I left room and was clear that I am not saying you can not do anything you have claimed. You could in fact be doing just what you said, I only meant that I am skeptical. Maybe it is because my experiences are at fault and my tactics are inferior. I allow for that possiblity. The race I posted is not one I play normally, it was only to respond to the score you mentioned. So people could relate 1900 to what is a high score. Don't misunderstand, anyone can match that score, I am not trying to say I did something special, just what can be done. Happy face here.

	07-11-2002 23:52									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh and I forgot to mention! I assume you are playing with version 1.31 which has creative as 8 picks instead of the old 6. This would make a very big difference in my opinion.

	08-11-2002 01:03									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

xoham: thanks for the link its added to my favourites (already used to it find out what does teasing mean).
I´ve take a look at the savegame and found out that it has a shitty start, because the homeworld system is a wreck. But think i will handle it easily anyway.You will get the saves. I dont already know if i will go out tonight, if yes you get them tomorrow, if not you find them later this night.
And one word about the version: I dont know i have patched my moo2, but this dont matter because you choose the race pics and that means that creative had cost 8 pics.

vmxa 1: youre skeptical? you dont believe that i win everytime at immpossible when i choose a race which is not so bad? then im waiting for your comment to my next questions?

xoham and vmxa: after reading and writing a little bit through the forum i have seen that you both are no newbies at moo2 and that your know not so few about strategies and how to use techs in a good way.
My question is: How can you not win everytime at immpossible? where is the problem? ( exept with discusting race pics, when you take all disadvantages and no advantages)

	08-11-2002 01:46									#15
	Remove this text

My problems are:

Having a former ally, or non-agression pact signer, turn on me because of being framed for spying. It is hard to fight a multi-front war. It is especially difficult if your former ally is really close with a big fleet.

Also, being hemmed in with a shitty starting system surrounded by empty or monster filled systems. Slow starts like that often get me killed.

In general, I think my biggest problem is that the computer gets such a huge industry bonus. If I can take one race over before getting into other wars, then this really helps me out and I will likely win. But if everyone is too far away for my fuel cells, then I can get wiped out by huge fleets, even if lower tech.

There are numerous problems if you are not creative. The biggest one for me is not having missle bases. This is because if a nearby foe sees an undefened planet, they will just decide to attack. If you buy a cheap missle base, then that doesn't seem to happen as often. This is an early game problem that happens a lot for me. They see a ripe system for the taking and go for it.

Perhaps my biggest flaw is not attacking early enough and trying to research too much. Maybe I should just research weaponry and skip everything else? (computer seems to do this a lot). Maybe I attack too late in the game?

	08-11-2002 01:52									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Don't rush through the game for my sake. I have a pretty busy weekend so I don't know when I will get to look at it.

Also, the version patch has some other differences. Apparently the AI does things differently. It would be nice if you could verify you have version 1.31 so that there are no questions about that.

Later maybe we should put the saved games in the "Saved Games" thread...

	08-11-2002 01:57									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i think i help to solve some of your problems:

make trade and resaerch treatys and later non aggresion pacts but nno alliances.with other races. they sometimes will declare because of spying but this takes normales place later in the game.
i will write more tomorrow because just in this moment i received a call which told that i have to go out.
TATA

	08-11-2002 02:51									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

bazi643, I will take any help anyone wants to give.


"make trade and resaerch treatys and later non aggresion pacts but nno alliances.with other races. they sometimes will declare because of spying but this takes normales place later in the game."

One thing is I will play all types of games and all types of races. How else can I learn. So I will at times be playing with a less than optimal race and may in fact have repulsive trait and not be able to have diplomatic relation at all.
But I will admit I have lost with the very race you tout. That is why I do not agree that creative is a sure win, it is if you get out of the gate. Understand I am not using any editor, any cheat codes or reloads or any of the tricks with frigate builds to get more production. Also know that I am not saying anyone is evil if they do, only that when one is talking about playing with another, if you are using those means, you should say so up front so the comparison can be valid. So with that in mind, and if you are not doing those things then give us a log so we can understand. If you are using any of the short hand stuff, fine just say so and I will shut up.

	08-11-2002 02:52									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh I forgot one other thing and that was menion by xoham and that is if this is done with 1.2, then also forget anything I said. I think you are using 1.31 based on your picks.

	08-11-2002 03:19									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

I can reload and still not win.

	08-11-2002 03:41									#21
	Remove this text

Yes, it is not like civ were the rng is making an impact. I was think in terms know about an event and being able to go back to prevent it. Not so much in terms of say a battle. Say you sent a ship to orion early or a revolt by a conquered race. Those could be fixed with a reload.

	08-11-2002 04:02									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Oh, badz, you wanna do moo really difficult and still use a kick-ass race? There's nothing to it really - just uncheck the tactical combat option and enjoy!

	08-11-2002 19:58									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

xoham: i`ve made it, now you can look at the saves. I had very bad start and it took long to build my empire. But after a whilei had the best technologies in galaxy. It was easy to defeat my opponents which low tech ships. After 2 short wars with other races i attacked orion and 7 turns later i took out antares. With this race pics it was easy to win eventhough i had a bad start.

vmxa 1: i dont use cheats or something else. If i would i could play without them and would have a challenge. I started the thread, because i wanted to know how to make moo2 more difficult why should i use cheats then?

And now some words to your problem with not attacking early and research toomuch:
I think its the easier way to attack late and research much, but its not most exiting way to play moo2 (i think its more interresting to start wars early). Because if attack later with better technology you can took out a whole fleet with single ship. I dont know wheres the problem. Do you get attacked and have no defenses or what? If yes you should invest more in diplomacys (of courseif youre not repulsive which is a discusting, boring race pic) and fearing other races

Attachment: save10.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	08-11-2002 19:58									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

the second from 3 savegames

	08-11-2002 20:05									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

again the second of 3 savegames, this time with attachment

Attachment: save9.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	08-11-2002 20:08									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

now the last savegame

moomin: maybe unchecking tactical combat makes moo2 more difficult. But enjoy? this would make it boring. tactical combat is one of the most interesting aspects of moo2.

Attachment: save8.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	08-11-2002 21:56									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

bazi643, I do not understand what you are looking for. Several means of making the game more difficult have been posed, but you reject them as not being fun. Having a tough game is fun, beating an easy setup is not fun. Play as repulsive, play with uncreate, not non creative, but uncreative. Turn of tactical combat. Use feudal as a pick. These will make the game harder. You could start the game and scrap all or some of your starting items to increase the challenge. You could do what we use to do in Ascendancy, take no action for the first 300 days. Well in Moo2 you would have to use a much smaller number.

	10-11-2002 02:13									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Two more ways: 1- use only the provided races 2- make custom race and not use all picks. I have won with only max negative picks.
BTW I looked at those games, but they were so far after the fact. The earliest was around 270 or so. I was surprised to see no spies in that one though.
No question that any creative race that gets to turn 290 or so is going to win the game. My point is that it may not alway get to turn 150. Your point is that you alway win. As I said maybe that is true, maybe you are the best player in the world, I do not know. So show me.
I never said you used cheats, I have no idea if you do or not. Like I said I have posted a few games with detail logs so anyone can see what happened and how. They will be able to duplicate my steps and know it was all on the up and up. Garth Vader did the same, with some what less detail, but still very easy to duplicate. All I am saying and the reason I am so cautious, is that lots of people have posted their exploits and when ask to show us, could not. Hope you can, I for one would love to see it. Anyway if you find it too easy, use any of the ideas listed above to get more of a challenge, good luck.

	12-11-2002 18:29									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hi, this topic and bazi643 forced me to my first post here. First of all I've played Moo2 in 98-01 with friends as often in MP that at the end every turn to take was known. Only starting point, home system and leader decided who won the game. Off cause we played imp / huge / 8Player (3-4Human) / ant.... I agree with most of the things vmxa1 had posted here and under other topics. (except: i play moo2 with a more scientific focus). I found this site by looking for Highscores and i saw some scores about 27000 (one 30000). I thought impossible, no way. But than i figured out the -24pick trick. So i played using this and reached about 27600pt, but it's a really hard job.

But, at the end what i want to say is: bazi643 try -24.

Ok ok, very bad english.

	12-11-2002 20:23									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some speculations on fastest winning race on a small galaxy :-)

+20 Ground Combat; Heavy gravity - send them a few scouts with NO weapons to capture their starting star bases - 2-3 usually do; you have to catch them without ships, though

Omniscent or Trans Dimensional to find them quickly :-)
Telepathic to conquer them without fight or transports;
just an empty cruiser with no weapons will do :-) Note: you can capture them with transports either cause your race is terrific ground fighter :-)