08-11-2002 20:34									#1
	Racial controversy Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why is it so controversial to suggest that different races think or behave differently?

In Boddington's thread about crime, some considered it "racist" to say that race X commits more violent crime than race Y. Why is it racist to point out a fact? Of course the standard response to this is that race X only gets caught for more violent crime than race Y because police officers are "racist", or that race X is oppressed, poor, or disadvantaged so we shouldn't be suprised that they're more violent.

So it seems that we are expected to believe that all races, given the same environment, would have equal outcomes. To believe anything else means you are considered an evil racist.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

If you selected two groups of people at random, from all races, but all from a similar culture/environment (to cancel out the environmental factor), would you expect each group to have exactly the same averages for crime/intelligence? If not, then why is it expected that if each group is racially homogenous, then averages will be the same? With the environmental factor being cancelled out in both groupings, why would you expect outcomes to suddenly be equal between the two racially homogenous groups?

We have such enormous variation between humans in general, that I think it would be hard to find any two groups that were exactly the same, even if you cancel out environment.

It seems that the admirable desire to treat all people equally, regardless of race, has become mixed up with thinking that there are no (non aesthetic) differences between races.


Do you believe that race is only skin deep?

Why?

	08-11-2002 20:38									#2
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What makes you think that there are various "races?"

If you look at dogs and cats, there are even a greater variety among them. So are there various "races" of dogs and cats? Why?

	08-11-2002 20:38									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Do you believe that race is only skin deep? Why?

Yes.

As every human race on the planet can breed succesfully with each other that would suggest the differnces between them are incredibly small.

	08-11-2002 20:40									#4
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger As every human race on the planet can breed succesfully with each other that would suggest the differnces between them are incredibly small.

But breeding that takes place within one race will still produce massive variation, so why shouldn't this happen between different races?

	08-11-2002 20:47									#5
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Lets take some measurable characteristic such as height. Take the maximum recorded height, the average height, and the minimum recorded height of blacks, whites, and Asians. Compute the variation within a "race" and the variation across various "races." What is bigger? Compare the differences of each "race." Tell me what you find.

	08-11-2002 20:50									#6
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UR-

That there is significant variation within races does not mean that there can be no significant variation between races does it?

	08-11-2002 20:50									#7
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Yes in fact, IMO race is only skin deep. The relatively superficial differences in appearance that signify different "races" is the affect of an incredibly small percentage of our genetic makeup. Certain black african populations have been seen to have more genetic variety between each other then they have with certain white european populations. The idea of race is a completely human fabrication, while I have no doubt that people have different genetic make-ups which affect intelligence, sociability and such I don't believe race is any reliable way to distinguish this.

I also have a 'faith' that this is the case which some people might see as limiting, however it is based on the belief that delving into genetic racial differences and gaining "conclusions" on intelligence and behaviour is a dead-end road. If you were able to prove that whites are statistically likely to be inferior to, I don't know, aboriginees then what would you do with that information. What if blacks were more prone to crime, well perhaps they could have a separate legal status that would make it easier to convict them since they're more likely to be guilty. Its just an ugly line of thinking.

	08-11-2002 20:52									#8
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You have two cases:

1. There is a much bigger variation with in a "race" than across
2. There is a much bigger variation across than within each "race"

Case one does not support your hypothesis of "races," case two does.

	08-11-2002 20:53									#9
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Well, if you would use common statistical tests about your hypothesis large variations would lead to it being impossible to show a difference between 'races' on a any acceptable significance.

	08-11-2002 20:55									#10
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Grab an average white, an average black, and an average Asian. How big a difference is among them?

Take a middle class black in the US. Does she have more in common with a poor black or a middle class white?

	08-11-2002 20:57									#11
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Even better

take a middle class black in England has he more in common with with an middle class englishman or a working class south african

	08-11-2002 21:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia UR- That there is significant variation within races does not mean that there can be no significant variation between races does it?

Yes, there is no significant variation in how different races behave because of the vast variation of behaviour within a race.

The basic problem with using race as a predictor is that race is an artificial construct. Who is a member of the white race? The answer is subjective. So when we look at crime stats based on race, we are looking at a subjective judgement. A cop could arrest someone and record the person as white, the next day the same person get arrested and is recorded as being black.

While race is cannot be used to predict behaviour, we can use it to measure how people respond to different races. So we can look at significant statistical anomolies that indicate that cops treat blacks differently than whites.

	08-11-2002 21:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Grab an average white, an average black, and an average Asian. How big a difference is among them? Take a middle class black in the US. Does she have more in common with a poor black or a middle class white?

Sampling fallacy.

	08-11-2002 21:14									#14
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There is not enough evidence for me to decide if all races are equal. They seem to be pretty much the same, but pretty much doesn't cut it here, because that is not the point here right? Believing something just because it seems so nice and fair is just lame.

	08-11-2002 21:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You have two cases: 1. There is a much bigger variation with in a "race" than across 2. There is a much bigger variation across than within each "race" Case one does not support your hypothesis of "races," case two does.

But are these two cases mutually exclusive? Is it not possible that there is variation both within and between different races?

	08-11-2002 21:17									#16
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"Why is it racist to point out a fact?"

The assumption that someone is more likely to be a criminal purely based on the colour of their skin is racist.

	08-11-2002 21:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis There is not enough evidence for me to decide if all races are equal. They seem to be pretty much the same, but pretty much doesn't cut it here, because that is not the point here right? Believing something just because it seems so nice and fair is just lame.

This is exactly my point. It has not been proven that all races are equal, so why do those who believe this to be true attack anyone who thinks differently?

	08-11-2002 21:22									#18
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Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions?

My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

	08-11-2002 21:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH The assumption that someone is more likely to be a criminal purely based on the colour of their skin is racist.

But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

	08-11-2002 21:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

I believe you have to be more specific. Sometimes a race will be targeted by authorities, for whatever reason, sometimes even racism. I could not say that was a correct statement.

	08-11-2002 21:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions?

Although I believe differences between races are more than skin deep, I would not consider the races of job applicants when deciding who to hire.

quote: My point is we don't believe something we may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

So you don't think its possible to believe in racial differences and consider all humans your brothers and sisters? I can tell you from my own experience that it is.

	08-11-2002 21:30									#22
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Prime example, apartheid S.Africa. I can only assume that more blacks were arrested for violent crimes then whites. Would your statement work here?

	08-11-2002 21:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Although I believe differences between races are more than skin deep, I would not consider the races of job applicants when deciding who to hire.

Thats very admirable(I mean it, since you're taking a risk for idealogical reasons if you believe someone might be better at a job then another for racial reasons) but I would not trust the rest of humanity to act so humanely.

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So you don't think its possible to believe in racial differences and consider all humans your brothers and sisters? I can tell you from my own experience that it is.

I certainly believe thats possible, people can do horrible things to their brothers and sisters. Seriously, loving your fellow man doesn't equate to doing good for your fellow man.

	08-11-2002 21:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 I believe you have to be more specific. Sometimes a race will be targeted by authorities, for whatever reason, sometimes even racism. I could not say that was a correct statement.

You see, even without proof you want to believe that its police racism that causes race X to have a disproportionate number of its members arrested for violent crime.

If it was proven that police racism was a very minor factor, would it still be offend you if someone pointed out that race X commits more violent crime?

	08-11-2002 21:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions? My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

I am curious by nature. I love correct information. I dislike people who don't pursuit things that are true, but instead "nice" or like the mother told them. I do not have default assumption, but in my eyes everyone who does are ignorant, even if they are right by chance.

oh and

quote: My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire.

the two things you compare here are the same thing...

	08-11-2002 21:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Thats very admirable(I mean it, since you're taking a risk for idealogical reasons if you believe someone might be better at a job then another for racial reasons) but I would not trust the rest of humanity to act so humanely.

But I wouldn't really be taking a risk because although I believe in racial differences, I also believe in judging people on an individual basis. An individual may not be typical of his/her race.

quote: I certainly believe thats possible, people can do horrible things to their brothers and sisters. Seriously, loving your fellow man doesn't equate to doing good for your fellow man.

Neither does loving your fellow man mean believing he is equal to you in every way.

	08-11-2002 21:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You see, even without proof you want to believe that its police racism that causes race X to have a disproportionate number of its members arrested for violent crime. If it was proven that police racism was a very minor factor, would it still be offend you if someone pointed out that race X commits more violent crime?

Hold on, I was refuting that your equation was necessarily true, nothing else, I'm keeping this debate relatively honest lets not try to manufacture our points. That being said I have already stated that I don't need proof to "believe" that their are no "races". Thats just my own personal foible.

I would not be offended with someone stating "race X commits more violent crime?", though honestly warning lights would be going off in my head and I would want to point out other reasons why this may be true. If they continued to argue a purely racial reasoning for this I would certainly get dragged into a long heated discussion.

	08-11-2002 21:52									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia But I wouldn't really be taking a risk because although I believe in racial differences, I also believe in judging people on an individual basis. An individual may not be typical of his/her race. Neither does loving your fellow man mean believing he is equal to you in every way.

As you I judge on an individual basis. I recognize genetic influence on someones social/intellectual yada yada, I just don't recognize measurable differences between so called races.

Still, if you believed that statistically there is a higher chance that a white person would do a better job and you have 2 equal applicants, black and white.. you know the old arguement. Denying your knowledge of statistical racial differences would be a risk.

	08-11-2002 21:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

No, it only proves that they are more likely to be arrested for being a violent criminal. Nothing more.

Which might just mean that the police are just more likely to catch them. Which wouldn't be surprising giving the link Boddies posted.

Also it ignores the strong links between income and social situation and in most western nations the ethnic minorities have lower living standards and incomes than the majority.

	08-11-2002 21:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Hold on, I was refuting that your equation was necessarily true, nothing else, I'm keeping this debate relatively honest lets not try to manufacture our points. That being said I have already stated that I don't need proof to "believe" that their are no "races". Thats just my own personal foible. I would not be offended with someone stating "race X commits more violent crime?", though honestly warning lights would be going off in my head and I would want to point out other reasons why this may be true. If they continued to argue a purely racial reasoning for this I would certainly get dragged into a long heated discussion.

I'm glad that you are honest enough to admit that you don't have any proof of what you believe. Yet, although you know there is no proof of what you believe, you are prepared to get into a heated discussion over it? Why so heated? The person you are arguing with does not necessarily believe what they do because of hate.